This month's Employment Law at 11 is a Diversity & Inclusion Special. Regular panelist Seamus McGranaghan of O’Reilly Stewart Solicitors and Legal Island’s Christine Quinn explore the evolving challenges in the DEI landscape.

With increasing global scrutiny and backlash against DEI initiatives, spurred on in no small part by the Trump White House, this FREE webinar will examine whether these initiatives should continue, how businesses can respond to shifting expectations, and what practical approaches can be taken in the current climate.  We’ll address questions such as:

1.    Should DEI initiatives continue, or is it time for a different approach?
2.    How can employers in Northern Ireland sustain DEI initiatives amid global challenges?
3.    How can organisations demonstrate the value of DEI to employees and stakeholders?
 

Transcript :

Christine: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Employment Law at 11, sponsored by MCS Group. My name is Christine Quinn. I'm a Knowledge Partner here at Legal-Island. I'm joined as usual by Seamus McGranaghan of O'Reilly Stewart Solicitors. You're all very welcome this morning.

So what are we talking about today? We are talking about the increasing global scrutiny and backlash against DEI initiatives. So this is spurred on in no small part by the Trump Administration. And this morning we are going to look at whether these initiatives should continue, how businesses can respond to the shifting expectations, and what practical approaches you can take in the current climate.

So we're really going to centre it around three questions. One, should DEI initiatives continue, or is it time for a different approach? Two, how can employers here in Northern Ireland sustain DEI initiatives amid the global challenges? And three, how can organisations demonstrate the value of DEI to employees and other stakeholders?

Thanks, as always, to our sponsors, MCS Group. MCS help people find careers that match their skill sets perfectly, as well as supporting employers to build high-performing businesses by connecting them with the most talented candidates in the market. If you're interested in finding out how MCS can help you, head to www.mcsgroup.jobs.

As always, we are going to kick off with some polls to get you involved, so if you can get ready to select your options. Gosia is just going to pop the first poll up. So we're wanting to see whether your organisation has been affected by what's happening in the U.S. There's the poll there. If you could click yes or no. Nice and easy one to start you off.

I can see everybody's voting there, and it's jumping up and down quite a lot. Let's have a look, Gosia. Everybody has voted. Let's see how they have voted. So we have 16% are saying yes, and much larger, 84% are saying no.

Seamus, is that what you were expecting in that poll?

Seamus: I wasn't quite sure what to expect, Christine, if I'm honest about it. I think that there may be a position around where certainly there will be questions asked in workplaces and maybe a bit of anxiety happening with HR managers and people systems around what's coming out of the States and America.

I suppose it very much depends upon if you are working in Northern Ireland for an American company that might have been impacted by the order and directive of President Trump.

But 16%, I suppose, is more than what I expected for the position there. Eighty-four per cent, I think that's right what we would see for us here in Northern Ireland and with our legislative protections and all of our work that's being done in relation to case law and guidance and really about what we do now, which is a positive thing in my book.

But 16% is . . . Well, we're really at 20% there. So a significant enough number, I think. I'm a little surprised that it's as high as that certainly at this point, because this isn't something that has been . . . It's been expected and anticipated, but the actual bringing into the order hasn't happened. I mean, the administration only changed in early January, and it really is amazing to see how quickly and the pace of how things are changing and moving across the water.

So definitely worth keeping an eye on, absolutely. But yeah, I'm surprised that we're up there, nearly as high as 20%.

Christine: Yeah, I agree. Let's have a wee look at the next poll then, Gosia, when you get a second. So, in your organisation, do you believe your DEI strategy directly impacts business results, or does something perceived as . . . Oh, I must have put too many characters in. Is it nice to have? So, it impacts results, or additional expense, but nice to have. I apologise. That was my mistake on the poll there.

So it's jumping up and down quite a lot there, although let's have a look and see what everybody's thinking there, Gosia. So it's pretty even-stevens here. We've got 58% are saying that their DEI initiatives impact results, and 42% are saying it's an additional expense, but it's nice to have.

I'm surprised it's quite such an even split there, Seamus.

Seamus: Yeah, absolutely. So am I. And maybe that is reflective of what sort of views are and maybe how people have been influenced over the last number of weeks and months as well.

I think, look, in general, we hear a lot on the media. I think you can very rarely read something online, look at the newspaper, or watch the news where you don't hear comments like "woke society" and these sorts of very negative connotations that come out of it.

And I think that sometimes these diversity, equity, and inclusive aspects are shoved in the box with, "Here we go again. Here's the woke brigade coming again". And I think that they're very, very different. These are positions that are enshrined, protections that are enshrined in our legislation.

I suppose that the simple and the quickest way to me to get to it is to say if you end up in an industrial tribunal as a result of alleged discrimination, you have to defend yourself, or your organisation or your company, in relation to what is enshrined in that legislation. So, for me, it could never be really just something that's nice to have. It is a requirement of our laws and protections.

I think that the more interesting aspect is around that it impacts results. And personally, you didn't say that has a positive or a negative impact. But I'm an employer too in my office, and in my experience, it is a positive impact that comes along with it.

And yes, it can be challenging, and yes, it can be difficult. Certainly, what comes across my desk is frustration at times in terms of, "Do we have to accommodate this?" Because people and businesses are generally worried about the cost implications of maybe some of the implementation factors.

But a lot of the time, whenever you break it down and look at it, there's not really any increased cost. And what you get is a more balanced, happier, wider, broader place to work in that has great people with great talents that you're able to accommodate.

So it's interesting from that point of view that it is. I'm surprised to see it that tight in relation to that. What was it, 42/58? Surprised to see that. But again, looking down the lens here, this is so topical and it is at the forefront, really, of everything that we're seeing on media at the moment.

Christine: Brilliant. So we'll move on to the third poll, Gosia, when you have a moment. What's the state of health of DEI in your organisation? If you could choose thriving, making headway in the right direction, struggling with challenges, or non-existent.

Let's see what people have to say on that. Wondering whether the two ends of the spectrum might be quite low results there, Seamus. But we'll wait and see. We'll not pre-empt it.

I can see everyone voting there, and give it another minute just to let you all get your point of view across. And it seems to have slowed there, Gosia, if you want to pop the results up.

So we've got 5% saying it's thriving in their organisation, 68% are saying they're making headway in the right direction, 23% are struggling with challenges, and we've got 5% saying it's non-existent.

I think that was kind of what I expected. I mean, I'm quite encouraged by the vast majority are making headway. But I thought a lot of people would be having challenges with it too.

Seamus: Yeah, that has warmed my heart, I have to say, after that last poll. It's good to see that would be, whenever I looked at the four options, what you would anticipate it would be.

These are, at times, difficult to implement from an HR perspective, to encourage and get those initiatives across the line in the workplace with your management team and with your owners and your presidents and all those sorts of things within the office. It's difficult sometimes to get these things across when often profit and the business aspect is sitting there.

So I'm delighted to see that people feel that they are making headway and that it's heading in the right direction.

There will always be struggles and challenges with it. I think that that's just part and parcel of it. And when you're implementing change, that has to be fully expected.

And excellent for the 5% there that are thriving in relation to it. They may be the examples out there that others can look to, to see how they resolve the challenges that sometimes come along with these things.

Christine: Yeah, certainly give us a shout if you're thriving. We'll get you on the podcast to tell us all how to do it. Thanks very much for that, everybody, for voting and, Seamus, for your analysis there.

So I have received a few questions by email already, so thank you very much for that. Any more questions, please pop them in the question box when you think of them, and I'll put them to Seamus as and when I can.

But for this podcast, generally, I try and steer away from using slides on Employment Law at 11, but I've put this one on because I thought it was really interesting.

So, during my research, I wanted to come up with a handful of names to give you that . . . These are American companies that are moving away from their D&I initiatives, and this is what I found on "Forbes" magazine, because I was really shocked at the sheer number that this slide has on it.

It's really a who's who of American companies. I mean, we've got the whole cross-section of companies here. We've got entertainment industry, banks, soft drinks, fast food, big tech. I put up their State Street because of their Fearless Girl statue. That's the picture of the little girl in the bottom right there. She's one of my favourites. She was originally positioned staring down the charging Wall Street bull in New York.

She's a real symbol of diversity and inclusion and kind of the strength of people, but the company that installed her are rolling back their D&I. So I thought that was just very stark.

So I suppose my initial point is this is why we're doing this webinar. It may sound like scaremongering, people are rolling back D&I, but the fact is they are. But what we're going to investigate today really is, is it these American companies? "Is it impacting Northern Ireland?" really is our question.

The first question I wanted to address, Seamus, is really "Should DEI initiatives continue, or is it time for a different approach?" Now, I think, in Northern Ireland, we have both an advantage and a disadvantage, really, don't we? We have our Fair Employment legislation. So we were doing this kind of early doors. It was enshrined into our legislation that fairness was a good thing. So we were doing it before the rest of this island was really, and it has helped shape our approach.

But at the same time, we also have quite outdated equality legislation. I mean, I think it's the Race Relations Act from 1976, is it? Before we were born, Seamus.

Seamus: Just about.

Christine: The country has changed significantly since then. So how do legal frameworks shape the way organisations should approach DEI?

Seamus: I think, look, it's important that regardless of what is happening over in the States . . . and I think that, Christine, the interesting aspect there is that when you look at that list that you had produced, you don't have to look very hard to immediately find employers that are based in the UK and in Northern Ireland in relation to it specifically here, and a number of those organisations that had offices and places of work in London.

I don't think that we have a Disney Store any longer in Belfast. I think that they closed down. But one of the companies on there was Disney in relation to that.

And there's an immediate impact that you could see with a stance taken on DEI and the type of store that is, what it stands for, and the type of children, as well, that could get comfort and benefit from all of that as well, when you could see the sorts of the arguments that are circling around that.

But in Northern Ireland, I think we need to be very clear, we have had a background, an unfortunate background, but it has meant that we have early doors, as you say. We have had legal protections in place in relation to fair employment going back to the 1960s. Legislation then being produced and government agencies set up in Northern Ireland to govern, monitor, and review positions around religion, political discrimination, those sorts of aspects.

We have a Fair Employment Tribunal here in Northern Ireland, not just an Employment Tribunal that they have in England. So we have an industrial tribunal, and then we have an FET that deals specifically with religious and political discrimination claims.

There is a requirement for that to this day, and sometimes you can get on the side of things that those claims are few and far between. But there is a separate tribunal set up in relation to the protection of those sorts of issues.

In particular, the reality and the question that you're asking around the legal frameworks, you only need to look at our legislation. And yes, there have been lots of calls for reforming of the legislation on repeat. Equality Act in England that we don't have the benefit of in Northern Ireland, but what we do have is all of our separate pieces of legislation.

And that is because it is a thorny job to go back and try to roll all of our legislation up into the Equality Act the way that they've done it in England. That's because there are specific issues and history to what has gone on. But there have been clear calls, and I think the Equality Commission have been at the forefront of seeking to have the legislation updated.

Even if you go back to our disability discrimination legislation, it's 1970s. There have been amendments and there have been additions to it, but the cornerstone of that legislation still lies in the original act. And make no mistakes, let's be clear about it, that legislation is what the law is in Northern Ireland, and those protections are enshrined.

So I just wanted to mention briefly, we're talking about Disability Discrimination Order, the Sex Discrimination Order, the Race Discrimination Order, FETO, under the Fair Employment and Treatment Order (Northern Ireland), which is your religious belief and your political opinions.

Disabilities, what about the neurodiverse community, people with autism, ADHD, access to work for those with impairments in relation to physical disabilities, and the ability for someone to work and to contribute and to contribute towards society? What happens?

And that was a real big question in my mind whenever I was looking at this. What happens if there is a climbdown on DEI and people who are perfectly capable and can bring huge benefits to a place of work are suddenly not included and not able to come to work? What happens then? You end up with people then that are unable to work and are reliant on benefits and on society.

So there's an absolute concern here that if you step away from this, or even if you climb down from it, you're going to have such a huge impact

The other issues that we have . . . I mean, yes, we've had developments in relation to the trans community and LGBT rights and all of those sorts of things. But even bringing it up to the very recent developments that we have seen, the Good Bills Act, the enhancement . . .

We talked on our last webinar about the Domestic Abuse Safe Act. This is another potential minority part of our community that we've enshrined when this legislation does come in that we seek to protect.

Our Programme for Government, our gender pay reporting legislation, that is on the way. Your mind starts to go down that tunnel of almost, "Where will this all bring us to in relation to it?"

But the bottom line is that the legal framework is that it's the legislation that is there, it is the case law that is developed as a result of that, it's the dicta that we've received from the courts that has enhanced the legislation that's in place.

That brings us right up then, really, to our organisations that are here to seek to promote, safeguard, and protect the legislation. So the likes of the Equality Commission, the Labour Relations Agencies, our trade unions. And there are maybe elements that trade unions are feeling under fire and attacked also presently here in relation to if there's a climbdown from employment rights in general.

A lot of the Good Bill stuff is around flexible working, so not just the classic orange and green issues of Northern Ireland. We're much broader and bigger now in relation to the likes of flexible working, protection for women in relation to maternity leave, pregnancy, all those sorts of things. That is all diversity and inclusion in the workplace, and it is scary to think that there would be a move away from those protections in our law.

But the bottom line is the clear legal framework is that we have the legislation in place. And I don't see that there's any Programme for Government that is looking to reduce the protections at present. Certainly, it's the opposite way around where they're seeking to be enhanced.

Christine: Yeah, and I think it's important to be very clear that most of our employment law comes from Europe. That's its origin, really. And European law does not allow for positive discrimination, which in certain circumstances in America, that is allowed because of their historical race divide.

So it is very different here, with the possible exception of the PSNI. We do have a kind of positive discrimination because of the historical recruitment issues in the nationalist community, and that is part of the peace process. But that is the anomaly in Northern Ireland.

You're not allowed to look at your workforce and go, "We want more of X type of people. We are going to go for them and choose them over other more suitable, more highly scoring candidates". That is not the case. So I think we need to really draw the line between Europe and America on that. That is not the case in Europe at all, and it cannot be done. So I think sometimes that is where fear comes into it of people afraid of DEI.

I should say we're probably going to alternate between D&I and DEI. There are all sorts of different letters we can use to describe it, but we're meaning the same thing.

I've got, Seamus, one of the questions we received by email. "Could the global backlash against DEI initiatives . . . instead of leading to wholesale abandonment here in Northern Ireland, perhaps could this provide an opportunity for employers in NI to refocus their DEI initiatives so that they specifically focus on local aspects such as a sectarian religious divide, political harassment?" Is this a chance for us to address more issues, I suppose, that are more homegrown issues instead of taking our cues from America, who arguably developed DEI?

Seamus: I think that we have appropriate legislation in place in respect of those specific issues that have been particular to Northern Ireland. And as we talked about earlier on, those protections are in place. The fact that we have a Fair Employment Tribunal . . .

And it's always one of the interesting ones whenever you work with a solicitor in England. I do a bit of agency work, and maybe from back in your time as well, you'll remember that you would have maybe Northern Irish cases, and sometimes the English and the Welsh and the Scottish lawyers will want to know, "Why do you call it the industrial tribunal? That sounds so old-fashioned", in relation to what we would talk about in terms of industrial relations and things like that, all the new ways and all the new words that we use in relation to it.

But the fact that we have that in Northern Ireland . . . And yes, I think that there has been thought and there has been a push maybe in relation to an updating of our legislation, but I think that we do have adequate cover in relation to those specific concerns that we would have had in Northern Ireland.

I don't think Northern Ireland is different to any other place when it comes to . . . If we think back to the summer and the protests around immigration and things like that, those are race matters. And again, we have legislation in place that protects us.

There's not a huge difference between the legislation that we have in comparison to the Equality Act. And if you come across any settlement agreements or compromise agreements, as we call them here, you'll maybe have got your teeth into that because you'll see the difference of the name of the legislation. But often, you can look up the same parts of the Acts and cross-reference and find them.

As we know, there are nuances, and there are technical difficulties in relation to some of the legislation. But I think in a lot of ways, we have been progressive.

It was interesting whenever we were talking about the Safe Leave Abuse Act, that was something that was . . . At the time, we were ahead of the game in relation to that. And often, we would see ourselves as coming behind the gate and coming after others. But I think for this particular area, we have been pretty positive, and I think we're shaped because of what has happened in the history of it.

Ultimately, coming back to that question, I think that we have suitable protections in place already in Northern Ireland, and it's about the newer issues that are coming down the line, the changes in our society and those issues that maybe we haven't had to deal with on a larger extent.

Maybe it is more in relation to the issues around protests with race, trans rights issues, and those sorts of developing parts that have come to the fore over the years that people like Piers Morgan and Elon Musk have kept us updated and abreast of.

Christine: Yes. I mean, I think coming back to our original question that we were trying to answer in this webinar, "Should DEI initiatives continue?" the answer is a firm yes, because the law tells you it has to continue.

Is it time for a different approach? I think, arguably, we are in a different climate. We did have rioting and protests in the summer around race, whereas historically we like to keep our rioting and protests on orange and green issues. So is that progress? I don't know. But it does show that there is a change in the communities in Northern Ireland, so we do have to look at it slightly differently.

Now, we have a question here. We've been focussing on the legal minimums. "Don't break the law" is what we've been saying. But when it comes to DEI initiatives, training, etc., how should that continue? How can you, I suppose, continue to be better?

I mean, I have some experience in this that I can give to this question. At Legal-Island, I sit on the technical panel of the Belfast Business Promise. I was there yesterday, and I was very encouraged by what relatively small companies in Belfast are doing around their DEI, which is not a requirement of the law.

We do have companies in Northern Ireland who are reporting on gender pay gap and are attempting to do something about that. There was one small company that stood out to me yesterday. It's only a four-man band. Or a four-person band, should I say, if I'm doing DEI. They have absolutely fantastic flexible working opportunities. They have a great programme for reasonable adjustments to allow disabled employees, wheelchair users.

This is a four-person company. They're not investing a lot of money in it, but they are just thinking, "How can we get the biggest pool of talent in Belfast to come and apply for our jobs?"

I think it's not something you need to spend a lot of money on, and it's something you can do regardless of whether you're working for Google or whether you're working for Joe Blogs, Incorporated, with four people.

So yeah, I think you should be going beyond the law until the law catches up with society's needs, really.

Seamus: Yeah. I think, also, in relation to that, the research shows that . . . And we've covered this in previous webinars, and particularly whenever we were looking at the ESG aspects as well. Candidates that apply for roles will look at the company and will decide if this is a company that they want to go and work for.

The research evidences the fact that if you are an employer that supports diversity and inclusion, and that you have information about that on your website . . . And we look sometimes at websites, and we'll see the corporate responsibility aspects and things like that. If you have those benefits in your workplace, your employees will talk about that and let other people know.

We all know of companies and organisations that we say, "They're not good to work for", or, "They're a really good company to work for because they do X, Y, and Z and they accommodate this and that".

We are all struggling in every sector that I'm aware of in relation to recruitment and about our ability to . . . Recruitment and retention is the other part with it. You have to be thinking of it from that point of view of, "Am I a good employer, and how do I go about demonstrating that I am a good employer?" Whether that's looking at internal polls, whether it's getting feedback from your staff, it's always looking at, "Well, what is it that we can do better?"

Again, the research is clear that the happier your workforce are, the more productive that they are and the more that they bring to the table in respect of your business.

So all of the tools that come along with DEI create support and build up that element of your business. That's the classic, and that's a really important point to say. You might be a small employer. It does not exclude you from the rights that are set out within the legislation.

Yes, a tribunal can look at the resources that are available in certain circumstances, and they can take into account the size of the organisation and things like that. But at the same time, there is a misconception that if you accommodate reasonable adjustments, it's going to be expensive. It does not necessarily have to be.

And I think that's proof of what you're saying. A small employer with four or five employees that is making those accommodations, that's fairly clear to me that if a small employer can do it, why can't a larger employer with larger and more resources also accommodate?

Christine: Yeah, and I would encourage anyone on the call who's a Belfast-based organisation to get in touch with the Belfast Business Promise. You do not have to be the perfect organisation. You can work towards becoming a supporter of the Promise step by step, and they give you all the resources and help to do that. I think you will surprise yourself at how good your organisation is already. So I definitely recommend getting in touch with them.

Another question here, Seamus. It was emailed to us. "Many inclusion specialists are urging organisations to be explicit and shift from using the term DEI and actually use the words intentionally". So you name the group that you're trying to assist, I suppose. So you're either for inclusion, you're for fairness, or you aren't. So I think that this question is really around words, I suppose.

At the start of the webinar, you used the word "woke". That word "woke" is now kind of used as an insult. Well, it is used as an insult to people. There is a bit of momentum building for, "Oh, you're a DEI hire. You're a diversity hire". That's the type of stuff we're starting to hear. 

I suppose moving away from the language and being more intentional might be a good way to go.

Seamus: Yeah, I think it's always good to be explicit as part of your . . . Sometimes you'll see companies will set out their position very clearly. They'll have a motto in the window, or they'll have some sort of identification of what it is that they do and who they are, or on their websites. And I think that it is important to do that.

If you think back to "we are an equal opportunities employer", that was always . . . Every time you saw a job advert or you were looking at jobs, that was the point that . . . Employers were putting that out there to say, "We are an equal opportunities employer". And this is much the same, only it's got a bit more advanced.

So equal opportunities, diversity, equity, and inclusion, whatever you want to call it, but I don't think that it does any harm, and I think it lets people know who you are.

And for you attracting the right people into your organisation and for you getting the people that you want as well into your organisation, I think it's always best to be open and transparent about that.

Christine: Yeah. So the next question we're addressing, really, is, "How can employers here sustain DEI initiatives amid the global challenges?" I suppose for an HR person listening today, their MD calls them in and says, "What's all this Trump saying about it being a waste of money? How much money are we wasting on this stuff?" It's about trying to change the narrative. How much money are we saving not having to constantly recruit? How much money are we saving by getting the best candidate for the job instead of fishing in a small pool? Isn't that it, Seamus?

Seamus:  Yes, absolutely. Again, I suppose it goes back to the point that nothing has changed here. We are still required under the legislation to protect the rights of whatever protected characteristic that it is, or whatever the inclusivity aspect is.

The tribunal will look to see what your policies and procedures are. They will look to see how you implement your policies and procedures. Is it a tick box? Do we just have a policy that sits on our intranet or in a [inaudible 00:35:48] that's available, or is this a thriving document that the thread of it is woven throughout the organisation from the top down to the bottom?

If you look at the developments in the case law . . . And even if I think around the reasonable steps argument and those sorts of defences and all of the case law that we've talked about in our prior webinars, this certainly is not going away. I think that's the message. And you should still continue on in relation to your getting to the point where you're thriving rather than making headway, going back to those poll questions. I think most employers here understand that.

And I think that there can be a position where you're saying . . . And if we think back to the time of when the economy went downhill back in 2006, what was the first thing that the government did here? It was to remove some of the employment rights to try to spike the ability for employers to hire and to be able to fire if that wasn't working for them, and to give that increased flexibility around that.

I think that's what we're seeing really, ultimately, that is coming from America. It's an economic position where it is "wipe everything out and just blast on and push, push, push".

But I don't think from a societal position that that is . . . It might work for a while, but it's something that's going to ultimately fall flat on its face, and you're going to end up back in the place where you started from, I think, with the rights that are there.

So I think that it is important. It is not a singular issue in an organisation. It has to be something that is threaded throughout the organisation.

And if you look at any of the guidance that we receive and that we reviewed from the Equality Commission, from the Labour Relations Agency, top-to-bottom management training and open-door policy have to be a part of the organisation and not something that "if it happens, we huddle in a room and make a decision about how we're going to deal with it to wipe it under the carpet". That's not going to get you through a tribunal claim.

People are aware of their rights. There are certainly sufficient resources out there for employees and workers to understand their rights, and there are organisations there that will seek to safeguard and protect them as well. So if you end up in a tribunal, the clear message has to be, "This is what the expectation and the requirement will be, because that's what the law is here in Northern Ireland".

Christine: Yeah. We've got a question here. "Positive discrimination is not allowed, but positive action is. So welcoming statements, outreach, etc. Is this likely to change?" I mean, when we see the Good Jobs bill, there's no indication there. We're not hearing any noises about that. To me, the changes that are coming are enshrining more equality into our law as opposed to dialling it back.

Seamus: Yes, absolutely. And if you look at the statement whenever the consultation was brought back in July, in 2024, for the Good Bill employment rights, that was one of the things that was the cornerstone of what they were wanting to do. It's protection.

And I agree. I don't see any of that coming down the line, and I think also from some of the political statements that we've had locally and across the water in Westminster, there are people that are appalled by some of the steps that have been taken.

Now, we can't speak for really anyone at all, but there are segments of society that will rejoice and be happy with it. And there will be another part that will be appalled by the thought of sort of pulling back from D&I, given how far society has come with it.

Christine: Yeah. Seamus, our third question we're addressing today is "How can organisations demonstrate the value of DEI to employees and stakeholders?" And I suppose that's really what you were talking about there. We need to be taking all employees with us. There will be people who feel like, "Well, why is it always themmuns that are getting the help, and why am I struggling?" So you have to kind of try and take everyone with you, and that is a very difficult task, isn't it?

Seamus: I mean, the key for that and the legislation and the guidance, if we think of it in this way, it's not about giving somebody an advantage. It is about putting somebody on the same level and playing field as others. That's what this is really about. So it's not about giving somebody an outright advantage. It's about levelling the playing field and allowing others in society to play along with you. That's the simple view of how to look at it, I think.

And you will get kickback from certain employees where they think it's unfair that somebody is being accommodated more than others, but that's how you should bring that back and say, "This is not an unfairness. This is making this fair for this individual or for this group of people".

I think in terms of how you demonstrate the value of that to your employees is that you look at your recruitment, you look at your retention, you ask, "Are you a good place to work?" and you demonstrate to your employees, not on paper but by actions, as to how you are a good place to work.

And even around flexibility, if you have an employee that comes and says, "I need, for the next two weeks, to work half-days", if you have a sufficient resourceful employee bank, you can accommodate that. You can't accommodate it if you don't. If there's no flexibility built in, you're not able to accommodate that.

And that will apply equally to all employees, because everybody has those points in life where they need a little bit of flexibility, whether it's because we're caring for children or for our older folk, or whether it's because we've hit a hump in life and something has come up and we need to deal with it through illness or whatever the issues are.

There has to be that equality and equity across the board for everyone. Just because one person is benefiting from that at one moment in time doesn't mean that you haven't in the past or that you're going to need in the future. So I think that is a good example of how you can demonstrate that to your staff.

It's the aspect as well that if the business that we work in is thriving and doing well and it's because we have diversity and equity included in our workplace, our profits are better. And technically speaking, when our profits are better, our wages should be higher, as long as we don't have the fat cat aspect hoarded at the top.

But you see so much now about how employer businesses demonstrate that they are open about their profit. They're open about their ability. And more and more I see for bonus schemes, and when I'm reviewing contracts of employment, how open businesses are with their employees about their bonuses, and particularly those bonuses around how the company is performing as well as how the individual is performing. So those are the sorts of things.

The bottom line is that money talks. It's an important aspect. The way to get to that, and I think that's clearly what the guidance is about and what diversity and inclusion is about, is about bringing stability to the organisation. It's putting those add-ons to the business that allow the business to perform and hopefully increase profits, and those are shared.

And more resources are open to the other employees. Whether that is about further training, CPD, opportunities to move up the ladder and work, which is supported by your employer funding courses or training for you, it's bringing it all back to that, and I think demonstrating that to your employees.

So I think it's always helpful to . . . Some employers do an end-of-year update to their employees, or they do quarterly updates to their employees. You have to shout and put your wins and your successes out there.

Christine:  Yeah. And I think what is lacking in Northern Ireland is evidence gathering, data gathering. We don't have a requirement for gender pay gap disclosure at the minute, but it is coming. So I think it's worth your while learning how to do that. And we've got the fair employment monitoring, obviously, so you do have kind of a structure in place to start to do things like that.

If you want to prove to an MD that your company is doing well being diverse and inclusive, they're going to want hard facts and data. So I think it is worth investigating how to get that, because it is going to become a legal requirement down the line anyway.

Seamus, mindful of the time here, so I'm just going to wrap up with a few takeaways.

So, firstly, I would say my takeaway is a well-executed DEI strategy can drive business results, but pushback is growing, particularly in global markets.

Secondly, Northern Ireland organisations may not yet be experiencing the same pressures as their U.S. counterparts. HR leaders need to be proactive in defending and evolving their DEI initiatives.

And thirdly, balancing DEI with business priorities remains a challenge. But failing to invest in inclusion could impact recruitment, retention, and indeed your reputation. We only have to look at Citibank's case last week to see that that can be very damaging.

But thank you all very much for your questions. And Seamus, thanks for your insight.

Of course, here at Legal-Island we have a fabulous diversity and inclusion eLearning course, which I would be absolutely killed for not mentioning. So here are some details for that. Do reach out if you would like more information. Gosia is also just dropping a little message into the chat there.

We have a new Certificate of Diversity and Inclusion in the Workplace course running. It's CPD-certified. It's coming later in the year. This is the third year in a row we've run it. It's an eight-week course with two-hour classes running each week. It's a really fantastic course, some fantastic speakers on that. So please do click on the link that Gosia has dropped into the chat there.

And in the meantime, if you'd like to catch up with Seamus and I, Employment Law at 11 is on Spotify, Amazon Music, and Apple Podcasts. So you can catch us there.

You can also catch up with us on LinkedIn. So please do connect to us. It's always lovely to hear from you, especially if you've got some ideas on what you'd like us to talk about.

But thanks once again, Seamus. Thanks to everyone for listening and for your questions. Have a lovely weekend, and we will see you next time.

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