Julie Holmes discusses your employment-related questions with Seamus McGranaghan from the employment team at O'Reilly Stewart solicitors.

As schools close their doors for the summer break, employers face a unique set of challenges. Seamus tackles hot topics such as the ongoing tug of war between employers and employees about returning to the office, navigating childcare obligations, supporting working parents, and finding the perfect balance between professional dress codes and staying cool during scorching weather.

Seamus answers your questions, including:

• What impact would a return to the office mean for working parents?
• What can employers do to help their employees with the cost of living dilemma of working from home with increased energy costs or increased childcare costs if they return to the office?
• How does childcare support differ in NI from GB where new incentives have been announced?
• What considerations should employers be aware of during hot weather such as maximum temperatures?
• Tips on dealing with appropriate work attire when the mercury rises
• How do you handle employees who call in sick when holiday leave isn’t granted?

For read the recent Irish News article written by Seamus on the topic of childcare, please click here: https://www.irishnews.com/business/2023/06/20/news/childcare_implications_on_employees_if_office_working_becomes_the_default-3347116/

Please note that the employment law matters discussed in this webinar apply primarily to Northern Ireland.

Recording

Transcript

Julie:   Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Employment Law at 11. If you're a regular at these webinars, please do not adjust your set. My colleague Christine is on a well-deserved break, and I'm filling in for her today. My name is Julie and I work in the Knowledge Team at Legal-Island. Thanks very much for joining us today.

So, whether this is your first time or your 100th time attending Employment Law at 11, please join me in welcoming our expert speaker, Seamus from O'Reilly Stewart. Seamus, great to see you again.

Seamus:  Good to see you, Julie. Thanks very much for filling in today.

Julie:   Okay, thank you. And thanks as well to our sponsors. So Legal-Island's webinars and podcasts are sponsored by MCS Group, and MCS help people find careers that match their skill sets perfectly. They also support employers to build high-performing businesses by connecting them with the most talented candidates in the marketplace. So if you're interested in finding out more about how MCS can help you, then please head to www.mcsgroup.jobs.

So, as schools have closed their doors for the summer break, that doesn't mean that HR gets a break. We actually have a unique set of challenges. So today, Seamus is going to tackle hot topics such as the on-going tug of war between employers and employees about returning to the office. We're also going to look at navigating those childcare requests that you may be getting from employees.

We're looking at support for working parents and finding the perfect balance between professional dress codes and staying cool during scorching weather. We're also going to look at holiday requests that maybe haven't been granted, and just at the same time, you have your employees with increased sickness on those exact dates.

So to start off with, where are you joining us from today? Are you in the office or are you working from home, or somewhere in between?

So we know that there's still the on-going debate about whether hybrid working supports better productivity, staff retention, and better work-life balance, but employers seem to have a different idea about that.

So before we start, I'm going to ask Seamus about an article that he wrote for the "Irish News", which was published, Seamus, just before you talk to us about HR practitioners and how organisations need to consider a return to the office and how to look at several aspects before making a decision. So can you just remind us with a quick summary about how they should do that and what we should include, please?

Seamus:  Well, the big time that we were looking at this sort of rush to the return to the office was back whenever we were hoping that the government were going to lift their regulations around working from home. And I think we're well established now at this point in relation to things very much normalising.

The vast majority of clients that I have, they're working in industry that they can. The result of the pandemic has really left this sort of very much an increased hybrid place of work where you have employees that will work part of the week at home, or alternatively they'll do one week on, one week off, or they'll be in the office for two or three days a week and working from home the remainder of the time.

And obviously, the big benefits for employees in relation to that has really been their ability to work from home, they can manage their life better. Some are finding that it's much more beneficial in relation to lifestyle. They don't have the travel elements of it.

And I know that we've come into the summer season and we can see the lighter traffic that we have on the roads in relation to as the schools are out. But for a lot of parents, there's an ability to work from home to facilitate bringing the children to school in the morning, coming home, and being able to get a day's work in and not have those exhaustive and sometimes very challenging trips and drives in and out of work, or public transport, or whatever it is.

And there's also an increased cost when people are doing that, whether it's through public transport or whether it's parking costs whenever they get to work if they're driving. So there are lots of reasons that employees can certainly put to employers in relation to why they would want to continue to work from home.

One of the aspects I think that we are seeing is that this normalisation has very much happened. Even as solicitors and practitioners here, we have all been called back to court. The Lady Chief Justice has issued a direction that really the norm should return in respect of not appearing remotely on computer.

Now, you can still do it and the courts will facilitate that where they will do it, I suppose, and where it's necessary. But very much, I think, for me that was the point where I thought, "It really is back to normal at this point".

And I think that there are a lot of issues arising in relation to that tug of war, as you called it, where employees are saying, "No, I want to continue to be able to work from home. But I will give a little. I'll look at this hybrid way of dealing with it".

Certainly when it comes to the summer holidays, Julie, I think one of the issues is that where people are taking leave, there can be a sudden call for people to return back to the office on a full-time basis simply because others are away. And I suppose some of the concerns in and around that would be that we have this aspect of the employer expecting flexibility, which is fine, but not giving sufficient notice in relation to it.

So one of the things I think has to happen is that there needs to be proper notice given to an employee to say, "Look, you're going to have to come into the office", or, "Will you come into the office on a full-time basis for the next two weeks? Because one of your colleagues isn't going to be here".

And I think it's about providing sufficient notice in relation to that and being aware that the employee will have to make arrangements in that regard. We have children off now for summer. We have childcare provisions that will need to be obtained. So there are lots of those sorts of issues that are arising presently.

But on a broader scale in relation to that, I think that . . . You sent me some information through. We know that 7 in 10 companies globally, which is 72%, have implemented a return to the office, with two-fifths, so 42%, were saying then as a result of that, they were seeing higher levels of attrition. So where employers have taken a forceful stance and said, "You must return", what they're noticing is then that they're seeing a lot of people leaving the place.

And we all know the difficulties that everybody is having in respect of recruitment. And recruitment and retention are certainly, I think, still with us and they're still going to be with us. This summer period is a bit of a test and it's a bit of a trial for how all this is working out, really. So I do think that employers need to be careful.

The other big thing that they need to be careful about is in and around saying that somebody has to come back to the office full-time and maybe not being cognisant or not being aware sufficiently in relation to reasons why that person can't return to the office on a full-time basis.

So, there may be issues around childcare. There may be an issue around caring for maybe disabled children, relatives, or elderly parents as well. And also then the position in and around if there have been reasonable adjustments that have been put in place to facilitate them.

There has been a bit of an issue whereby the normal process for things like flexible working has lost its way somewhat as a result of this hybrid working. And what would've been a very formal process for flexible working, in order to achieve that goal maybe of hybrid working, has been lost a bit in the issues that have arisen with the pandemic and coming out of the pandemic. And then this sort of position of normalisation that we're returning to now, and employees and employers butting heads about what exactly the position is.

But there would be concern specifically around those sort of sex-based discrimination claims, disability discrimination claims, where employees are sort of feeling that they are being forced, with one hand up their back, back into the office. And maybe just all of those issues have been lost in translation as a result of the pandemic. So certainly that is one thing to watch out for.

Outside of that, I think it's the staff retention and it's the recruitment aspect. I think we're definitely seeing a pushback, particularly from our younger folk whenever they are looking for employment and whenever they're applying for roles. The expectation is that there will be an element of hybrid working available to them.

And depending on your sector, it might be that you're working from home all of the month and maybe coming in one day for a team meeting or something along those lines, particularly if you're in those sort of IT sectors or sectors where you can absolutely work from home 100% of the times.

And it does create difficulties and arguments for the employer to try to enforce it. But I think, overall, the key aspect for all of this has to be open communication, keeping things open and transparent, discussions with staff. If there is a requirement or there is a need to have an increased number of employees in the office, I think that needs to be communicated clearly.

I think that it also needs to be clearly justified. And I don't think it's a matter of an employer just simply saying, "You have to get back to work in the office, and that's it". Where we're at, at the minute, it needs to be understandable. It needs to be presented in a clear way and an understandable way for employees to get on board with it.

Julie:   So that's interesting that you're talking about the generational differences too, Seamus, but there'd be certain people that would argue as well that there are certain times in someone's career, or perhaps if you thought that there were too many distractions as an employer, that you might want somebody in the office as well.

Seamus:  Yeah, absolutely. And with the advice around open communication, I think that that is really important. For things like staff morale and everything else, employees just want to feel included when it comes to those sort of big decisions that are made.The real clear way, and it's one that we bang the drum of all the time here on our podcast, is that ideally you want to have some form of written policy in place around your position. Whether it is hybrid working, whether it's working in the office full time, or whether it is somebody working from home, there needs to be a clear written policy about that. It needs to be applied consistently across the board. And I think employees need to go somewhere where they can pick up the policy and know what it says. Certainly I think that that is really important.

And if you end up in a tribunal case with a claim for discrimination, the expectation from a tribunal will certainly be, "Well, what is the policy and how is it available?"

Julie:   All right. Great. Seamus, thanks very much for that, because I think that that encompassed a lot, and it also did set up the scene really about specifically childcare and just the fact that summer break really does present a bit of an issue for employers and their employees as well.

So Michael, if you could share that first poll for us, please. So we have a question for all of you that are joining us today. Can you take a look and just let us know your response to this question, please? "Have you already been approached about summer childcare issues from your employees?" And you'll see that you've just got two options to choose from, yes or no. We'll just give you a moment to indicate which of those is applicable to you.

It'd be great to think that it's not an issue, that it all went very, very smoothly, but I have my suspicions. And so, Michael, whenever you're ready to share some of the results.

So we have 58% of people who said that they don't. Hopefully that means that you already have in place some of those steps that Seamus had mentioned, and then you've been able to take those steps and mitigate anything beforehand.

And for those of you that do have any childcare issues, you'll be able to avail of Seamus's advice just about in general about getting people back into the office, about clear communication, and we're going to move a little bit into this subject in a little bit more detail.

So Seamus, you kindly said that you'll also share for us about the article that you did for "Irish News" where you were talking about the fact about hybrid working and then specifically about childcare as well and how it differs.

So when we're looking at people returning to the office, one of the big things that people would mention is about what impact it would have for working parents specifically. So you've covered it in general terms, you've talked a little bit about generational, what employers need to be aware of, but what do we need to think about in relation to working parents, please?

Seamus:  Well, this is the big issue, and particularly at the minute as well whenever we're hitting the summer months.

In Northern Ireland, we have a different position here in that we get lengthy holidays in relation to the summer. Most of the school-aged children will be off for around seven, some of them are off for eight weeks, and they're usually looking at sort of a graduated or phased return in and around the last week in August and things like that as well. So it can really take us up to September time. It can be a long period of eight weeks for parents to have to deal with childcare issues. And it's just particularly prevalent at the minute.

I did do an article for the "Irish News". One of the interesting pieces of information about that was that it's estimated that around 41% of employees are now working hybridly in Northern Ireland.

And then we have this aspect now whether is legislation that is coming into effect, where in England parents can get 30 hours free of childcare. And that's from children from the age of 9 months. And there'll also be an increase to childcare support available through Universal Credit.

We are not going to benefit from that here in Northern Ireland. And as everyone will be aware, employment issues are devolved matters in Northern Ireland, and we don't have our institutions that are up and running. We don't have anybody at Stormont. But I think if there's a push and if there's an element, we might get that back in the autumn. This might be certainly one of the key areas that there might be a push on.

And I think that Christine had previously mentioned in the last podcast about a group called Melted Parents NI, and I think you'd mentioned about the . . . You'd have to look at the website and what they were saying in relation to this as well.

But yeah, the negatives of a return to the office for a parent are obviously that they would have to arrange childcare. There's a financial burden with that. And it's the ability to find childcare as well. Not everyone has the ability just to get a place in a childcare facility that will look after children in the meantime. Those places are hard to come by, there aren't sufficient resources in relation to them, and they're expensive.

And I hear all the time about people saying, "Childcare is more expensive than my mortgage is". I hear that all the time. So, that's an automatic pressure on parents that would be required to return to the office on a full-time basis.

And in addition to that, then, it's also the aspect that if parents have to commute to and from work, they may be missing out on those elements of being able to . . . I'd mentioned there about the ability maybe to drop children off in the morning to school or collect them in the evenings. The longer commute, it could add anywhere up to two hours additionally to where you're traveling in Northern Ireland.

I mean, I live pretty close to the city centre. I'm only a few miles out, but it can take me 45 minutes in the morning to sit in traffic to come down, and that's all time away. And the employee might be of the view that, "I can be using that time to be working at home, getting my tasks done, getting what I need to get done, rather than sitting in a car that serves me no purpose".

So there is pressure that will be put on in relation to that as well. And again, just around the staff retention and the morale aspect of employees feeling that this is something that is enough to push them to go and look for alternative employment because it just isn't working for them.

Julie:   Sorry, Seamus, I was just going to say there that you mentioned about Melted Parents NI. They did a quick survey and they said that one-third of parents were actually considering leaving their current employment within the next 12 months because of the different pressures.

I mean, again, that goes back to, as you said about the first question about return to office, retention of staff, attraction. You want to retain those skills so that you're not going through constant turnover and trying to find more people and then having to invest in them and up-skill only for them to leave for something else.

Seamus:  Yeah, and a terrifying prospect. If a third of employees are thinking about leaving work, where does that leave employers if there's such a risk to that extent?

Now, they obviously say that people should go to the website and have a look themselves and see what it says, but if that is what they have up, that is terrifying. A third is such a significant number.

Julie:   It is.

Seamus:  But it also demonstrates the frustration that parents are feeling in and around this issue and how important it is. It is that morale point, and I think it's something that employers do need to be careful about.

I mean, I think the other side of it is that where employers haven't to date received the flexible working applications, if there was a push to say, "You have to return full time", you can almost guarantee that you'll see a significant increase in flexible working applications. And those are on a permanent basis.

There are lots of temporary arrangements that are put in place, particularly around the summer months for parents. And even in our place of work here, we have to facilitate that because we know the pressures that the staff can be under. But where it's not facilitated and where employees feel that they haven't got any alternative, they will put an application in for flexible working.

It is difficult. Obviously, you can go through all of the steps that are set out in that process, but it is difficult generally to refuse those applications. You really have to have justifiable business reasons for that.

 And even at that, I have done tribunal cases in our tribunal here in Northern Ireland where the panel have just not accepted the justifications that the business had put forward and said, "This is something that should be facilitated and we don't understand why it's not".

So it can be very difficult, and I think that it is probably better from a flexibility point of view to try to agree on those arrangements. Whether they're interim arrangements over the summer months or whether they are arrangements that lever on a more long-term pattern, I think it's maybe better from a flexibility approach to do that rather than having to go down the line of a flexible working application, which will take time, which takes a lot of resources.

Julie:   Yeah, it does.

Seamus:  The employer needs to investigate and look at the options and all of that. So those are sort of the negatives of it.

And maybe I just want to just mention that there are some positives as well that can come out of a return to the office. Some of those things that we're seeing are that there is that aspect of collegiality and work, the ability to get support in work because there are people there in order to chat things through.

It's easier and more cohesive if you're working on a project with others if everybody's in the office and you're able to have those discussions and be in such close proximity that everybody sort of knows what's going on, rather than having to arrange a daily Teams meeting for everybody to catch up and to say their piece and all of that. So there are positive aspects of office life that we'll all remember.

And I think for a lot of people, just whenever they look at that, they weigh that up and they say, "Well, no, it's more beneficial for me to be able to work from home from a work and life balance and everything else". But there are those steps.

And certainly for younger members of staff as well, if you're learning and you're new to your role and you want to soak up and sponge as much information as you can, being with people in your place of work that are doing the same or similar work to you, you'll no doubt learn it quicker than if you're left to your own devices. Even if there's an amazing training programme that is done online, there's an argument there that it's just not the same.

Then I think just from the other side of it is that it's the company culture, the socialisation, and being with like-minded individuals, all of those sorts of positives. And that really can help when it comes to the office morale, the collegiality, having a good place to work.

I suppose, look, everybody does have different ideas about what a good place to work is, and it can be dependent on where you're at in your life as well. Whether you're starting out, whether you're hitting the top end of your career, or whether you're coming close the end of it, it looks different for everybody. But I suppose it's about coming back, again, to that point of being able to have those open discussions.

I think from an employer's point of view, being alive to those risk issues for employees with young children where they're told, "No, you need to be back in the office next week full time. There's no alternative to it", that's going to create issues. And it's better, I think, that those are explored through open discussion and frankness.

Julie:   Okay. And Seamus, we've got two questions that have come in already, so thanks. And again, any other questions, please just drop them into the questions box for us.

The first one is just in general in relation to bringing people back to the office. So when you talk about making sure you have those conversations with people beforehand, don't just land it on them on a Friday, "By the way, we need you in on Monday", what kind of lead-in time would you suggest for that? So I'll let you answer that one first.

And then the second one is about those concerns that employers might have if employees are working at home, but they're also minding children, and kind of what considerations. Maybe you have seen things like a drop in productivity, maybe you can't always reach the person when you want, so how do you balance, again, being reasonable, being fair, being supportive, but also, people are there to do a role and you need key productivity targets met as well.

Seamus:  Yeah, absolutely. Just on the first question, lead-in time for those sorts of discussions, that again will vary from staff member to staff member. But if you know that there's a staff member that is reliant upon their hybrid working for childcare issues or for caring issues or any of those sort of other issues that are about there, then the longer notice you can give, obviously, the better.

You also need to keep an eye on during that period of what holidays they have booked as well, and also what the expectations are if there are certain projects that they're working on that need completed, if they're going to be coming into the office to cover other people's work, or to pick up the slack while other people are on holidays. That all needs to be factored in as well.

But I think lead-in time, I couldn't say, "Oh, it'll be five days", or, "It'll be 14 days", or whatever it is. I mean, ultimately, it might be helpful to look at what the policy says in and around what notice an employee has to give for certain periods of leave. And maybe that's a good line to look at in order to see what might be reasonable. But certainly . . .

Julie:   Sorry, Seamus. So do you mean kind of the double amount? So usually if you're requesting leave, it has to be double the amount. So it's almost the employer doing that as well?

Seamus:  Yes.

Julie:   All right.

Seamus:  Yeah, I think that would be reasonable and helpful. But there may be circumstances where if somebody that has had some form of accident, they're going to be off ill for a period of time, the cover is needed, or that you just simply need the person back. But I think that you do need to give as much notice as you can.

It's that thing of taking a reasonable approach and what that looks like. But that might be a helpful tool to say, "Well, listen, if you were to come to us about wanting leave, then this is sort of similar".

But again, it always has to come down to the business need and the justifiable reasons for it. And there may be that it is just a shorter period and you're working with a person in order to facilitate that.

So they might say to you, "Look, I'm able to come in and cover for four days next week, but I can't do five. Or I can do three, but I can't do five. And here are the options around what we can and can't do". But I think lead-in period might be a helpful sort of tool to look at.

And just remind me what the second question was there again.

Julie:   Sorry. I threw them all at you at once. So the second one is really about when you're talking about childcare, when people are working from home and then they're also minding their children or their children are home, what types of things would you look at?

And I would say, again, as an employer, perhaps you have concerns about that, or perhaps that person is almost using, "Yes, I have caring responsibilities, so I can't come in", or, "I'm having difficulties doing this".

Seamus:  I mean, certainly what I get a lot of and what comes across in my desk is a lot of employers will say to me, "Look, it's not reasonable for someone to say they're minding their kids and working from home at the same time". It is a difficult proposition, it's challenging, but I don't think the employer should just assume that because children are going to be off, the work isn't going to get done.

It's about looking at that aspect of, "Well, are there two parents in the house? And does it facilitate for one to be able to work earlier in the morning from 7:00 until lunchtime, for the other to do the afternoon shift, and for some additional work to be done later on in the evening?"

And again, that may or may not be able to be facilitated, but there is an issue certainly around it. I mean, I think we're all really aware of that one, of the employee that says, "No, I need to work from home because my children are off", and you're thinking, "Well, how are you managing both?"

And it's not credible, I don't think, to be able to do the both if you're simply saying, "My children are going to be running around and I want to be working at the same time".

All the more difficult in the summer whenever there are outside activities and the ability to watch children and things like that as well. But again, that has to be a conversation that needs to take place, and I don't think the employer should shy away from that conversation to say, "Well, look, how is that going to work practicably if we need to call you?"

I mean, we have a number of people in our office here who start very early in the morning, they take time out to take the children to school, they come back, they work a different pattern compared to what we work in the office, but they cover core hours. So, there's not an issue with it and the work gets done and we can see that it's getting done.

So, it's a quick one to jump to the conclusion to say, "No, no, no, you can't do both", but there are ways around that that can be worked and facilitated. Or it could be that I can drop them off at the summer scheme in the morning. I don't need to pick them up until 4:00. I'd be working during those hours. I make up the remainder of the time because I start earlier, or in the evening I work later instead.

Julie:   All right. And somebody's just asked . . . We also have a question about what if the child is sick and they want to work at home. So again, almost that working from home perhaps instead of taking unpaid leave or perhaps using that family emergency leave as well. That can also be a dilemma, can't it?

Seamus:  Yeah, absolutely. The classic one is that the employer might say, "Well, look, take that as unpaid leave, or alternatively take it as a holiday". And you might get the employee that says, "Either I don't have the holidays, or I have already got the position where the holidays are taken up because I've time booked off later in the year", or whatever it is.

But all of those options could and should be looked at. I mean, certainly, they should be given consideration. They mightn't all work, but I think from the employer's point, they do need to be given consideration.

Julie:   Okay. Great. I think that you were also going to go through with us a little bit on what maybe employers can do to help any parents who are struggling with cost-of-living dilemma, and either they have increased energy costs at home or perhaps they have commute costs whenever they do come into the office. So I think you had some practical steps.

Seamus:  Yeah, I think a lot of the stuff that we have covered previously . . . I mean, the big one has been that there have been employers that have given salary increases to recover the cost-of-living matters that have arisen. Some have given vouchers in relation to the purchase of oil and gas and things like that as well. So, you have those sorts of perks that have been given.

I mean, the salary increase one is certainly . . . Even with all the strike action that has gone on, there is an expectation that there is an acceptance out there that salaries have had to increase as part of this process. And there's an element of taming the beast with that because, again, you want to be going back to your contract of employment and what the contract of employment says about salary review, when it will happen.

It usually says, "Don't automatically assume that there will be an increase". And often, a lot of the time, the increases will be based on performance of the individual and performance of the business as well. So there are those elements.

We did see a lot of the one-off payments that took place as well, where there was a cost of living payment that was made to help employees during those difficult times.

I mean, I think that by the sound of it, we're going to have another difficult autumn and winter coming through as well with interest rates. We know that the price of our utilities is going to come down, but it doesn't look like it's going to come down until after this period of autumn and winter that we have.

And there are pressures then certainly on employees and risks for employees as well. I mean, I've had it also where employees have said, "Look, I can't afford to work from home because I have to heat my house when I'm at home, and I'm balancing that off my transport costs to get into work and all of that", and looking at all those sorts of things.

 There is a really helpful one as well there. I'm not sure how much knowledge is out there about this, but there is a tax-free childcare scheme that employers really should be advising their employees about. And it allows eligible working families to claim 20% of their registered childcare costs.

If you go onto NI Direct, you can get the full details of it on there. You can claim up to £2,000 per child per year, or if you have a disabled child, you can claim up to £4,000 from HMRC on that.

So there should be helpful conversations, I think, happening between the employer and the employee about what is out there for the employee and the benefits that they can have.

Just on that tax-free childcare scheme, for a family to be eligible, both parents need to be working, or one person in a single-parent household, and you need to be earning between £152 per week . . . that's the minimum, and that's equivalent to 16 hours on the national minimum wage . . . and up to £100,000 per year. So it's not that it stops for a means-tested benefit where people under the threshold only get it.

So for example, that would mean that a household where each parent is earning £95,000 with a combined income of £190,000 would also be eligible. So there is a good benefit there for that.

And there's also an element where self-employed parents are eligible for tax-free childcare in totality. And I know that we have this element where in GB they're going to get a lot more than what we're getting, but at least this scheme is in place there to give some assistance and help. But it's worthwhile looking there.

And I think that where genuinely, in a HR role, if you know that you have employees that are struggling or that they're really worried about it, and even where they're coming to you to say, "Look, I can't afford to come to work any longer", I think if you have this knowledge and information available to them, that could be really helpful.

You can have it on your intranet or you could have it in your kitchen or your staff room or whatever it is also. But it's a tax-free childcare scheme, and if you look at NI Direct, you'll see the details of it.

Julie:   Okay. Great. Thank you. And it was nice that you mentioned about how there are some measures coming in elsewhere in the UK and just really where that stands. So what types of things are coming in? How really does childcare support differ in NI from GB where they have all these new incentives that have been announced?

Seamus:  I mean, certainly two important pieces of legislation. Again, they don't extend to Northern Ireland. I feel like the grim reaper today in relation to this. But we have the Neonatal Care (Leave and Pay) Act 2023 that has been given royal assent in June, and it's now law in GB. And it's expected that it will be implemented in and around April 2025. For the first time, families in GB with a statutory entitlement to paid leave for work if their baby needs neonatal care. So there's a benefit there in relation to that.

There's also The Protection from Redundancy (Pregnancy and Family Leave) Act 2023, which will come into effect in July, on 24 July this year. And it's a law that gives those who are pregnant or recent returners from parental leave priority status for redeployment opportunities in a redundancy situation. So you can see the rights are being extended out in relation to that.

And then there's a general one there. It's the Employment (Allocation of Tips) Act 2023, and that makes it unlawful for employers to withhold tips from staff. So if there are people working in hospitality, there's always a bit of an issue arising in and around that. This makes it illegal, and hopefully staff will be able to benefit from their tips that they receive.

And then, obviously, the big one and the big distinction for us is Jeremy Hunt's budget, where there was a major extension for families in England in respect to childcare. That isn't effective in Northern Ireland. But effectively what it means is that working parents of 2-year-olds will get 15 hours of free childcare from April 2024, and children from 9 months will get 15 hours a week of free childcare from September 2024. And all under 5 get 30 hours of free childcare from September 2025.

So we have time to catch up on this, Julie. Hopefully there'll be something done in relation to it, but it is a significant break for our counterparts in GB.

Julie:   It is. I mean, that would be fantastic for parents over here. And then I think as an employer or HR professional, I'd be especially interested about that protection from redundancy as well. As businesses are looking at streamlining, as costs are getting higher for employers as well, that's interesting to see that it's coming in basically later this month. And I know that at the moment it's not coming in, in NI, but usually we wouldn't have been too far behind, would we, Seamus?

Seamus:  Yeah. Look, I think we should be hopeful that we might see that being replicated here sooner rather than later.

Julie:   Okay. Great. And so then, Michael, if you could bring up our next poll question for us, please. So we're going to move on to a little bit of the weather and find out whether you have a dress code policy. "Is your dress code policy still fit for purpose with the increase in heat waves?" And I am aware of the irony saying this as it's overcast and windy where I am, and probably where you are too.

So do you have a dress code policy? Yep, everything is covered. So again, you aren't too concerned about that. Yes, but you think it could be reviewed. We're going to look a little bit about more uniforms, about those key temperatures, and how effective people can be in the workplace. Or no, we don't have a policy in place and don't think that we need one either.

So if you could take a moment and just let us know what you think. And again, remember, if you have any questions, drop them in the chat box.

And so, Michael, whenever you're ready, if you want to bring up the results for us. I know it takes a moment. Okay. So we've got half of our audience, nearly half, saying that they don't have one in place and they don't really require one. Some people are saying that yes, everything is covered, and yes, but it needs to be reviewed. So we're quite split over that.

Seamus will go through what we really had about dress code policies, because we were talking earlier on about how that's really changed over the last little while too.

So in particular with the hot weather, is there anything that employers should be aware of around things like temperatures when people are in the office and they're saying, "It's way too hot to work"? And again, even about the responsibilities of people working from home.

Seamus:  I mean, if we can remember back to last summer, we weren't as badly hit, but I can remember at one point it was hitting 40 degrees in London last summer. And I remember speaking with colleagues on the phone who had their curtains drawn for four or five days straight to try and keep the heat out of their homes and things like that whilst working from home as well. And the allure of maybe a nice air-conditioned office suddenly became very, very attractive.

Look, just recently there, I know that our weather this week and a bit of last week hasn't been great, but we were hitting sort of 26, 27 degrees. There's an element in offices where there's a natural heat that happens from all of the computers and the printers and all of that. And then just with having numbers in the office, again, there's a natural heat that happens. And then suddenly whenever it gets very warm like that, it can really cause difficulties.

So legally, the position is if you're working in rigorous physical effort in your job, the minimum legal temperature is at least 16 degrees or 13 degrees. So 16 degrees generally, 13 degrees if you're doing rigorous work.

But I'd say to that there's no number that is written down to say that if it gets too hot, you don't have to work, or if it hits 30 degrees, you don't have to work, or something along those lines.

The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations are from 1992. They place an obligation on employers to provide a reasonable working temperature in the office. But it's up to the employer to determine what that reasonable comfort might be in certain circumstances.

And then we have The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999, and it requires a suitable risk assessment to take place. I mean, I think in the majority of workplaces, there is an element of people being reasonable.

If you're working outside and it is very hot and you're doing rigorous work, employers might need to think about that there needs to be recourse for maybe shaded breaks, provision of sun cream, the ability to have cold drinking water. And a lot of that can also apply to very hot office spaces, or if you're working in a restaurant and you're working in the kitchen, it could be fairly unbearable in those sorts of temperatures.

So the unfortunate bit is that there isn't any kind of figure on the thermostat that we can say, "Oh, it's hit that temperature. Everybody out and down tools". And businesses, again, will have to work around their business needs.

So, the alternatives are that some of the practical steps that employers could take would really be to look at making the workplace more breathable and workable during those high temperatures. Maybe getting the doors opened up and then air circulating around. And sometimes that can just be hot, sticky air that doesn't really do anything. Making sure that there are appropriate breaks, that people can maybe get access to cold drinking water, if there's provision of fans, even some of those air conditioning units that can be brought in, or if sometimes the office has the benefit of air conditioning itself.

Those things can start problems and create issues with hot and coldness, and air conditioning being too cold and things like that. But really, I suppose it's about looking to try to get employees as comfortable as possible. And some of that element might be looking at if there's a requirement to wear a uniform, maybe a relaxation for a short period in relation to that also.

Julie:   All right. So it's interesting that you mentioned about the dress code. We've got people basically covering all the bases today in our poll. Some people say that they're well covered. Other people say that they may need to review it. So again, you'd mentioned about just relaxing it. Anything else you could add to that? I know that we've had airlines like Qantas and Virgin Airline, and they basically have created a range of uniform and then it's up to actual employees to individualise that. What do you think?

Seamus:  Yeah, I think that there are obvious issues around certain types of uniform that you have to wear. For instance, if you are in a job where you are at risk of something falling on you, you need to wear your hard hat, your PPE, your large yellow jacket that makes everybody aware, your clunky heavy shoes in case something falls on your foot. Some of that is just unavoidable for certain jobs that you're doing.

Sometimes, as well, employers can get a little caught up in forward-facing rules and presentation and making sure that uniforms are worn. And it's really great news that there has been this adaptability brought about in relation to uniforms, and maybe just not the same view that was taken in respect of the uniform as the uniform and the branding and the logo and all of that.

Uniforms are helpful for people in the sense that they don't have to purchase clothes to go to work in. Often the uniform is provided to them. And if there are variations or there's a relaxation to that because of extremely hot weather, I think everybody can understand that, including possibly your customers and your clients and things like that as well.

So I think where you can, you need to get that balance right and you do need to bear in mind the welfare of your employees. Ultimately, what you don't want is somebody gets sick or having to go home during their working day because of the fact that it's so hot and they're feeling sickly. So it's about that.

And if you're a really good employer, you can do nice things like maybe get lollipops in to try to cool everybody down, and maybe let people go out take a five-minute break to go out and stand outside if it's cooler outside, or things like that as well.

Julie:   Okay. And I think that I've seen on LinkedIn there are some employers that have had things like ice cream vans. Absolutely fantastic. So yeah, that's something I'm going to look for.

Seamus:  We can punt for that. Absolutely.

Julie:   Okay. So thanks very much, Seamus for that. That was a general overview just of temperatures and about making sure that employers have duty of care. And interestingly, you'd mentioned something when we were talking earlier about the Goldilocks syndrome as well, just about what happens in an office.

Seamus:  Yeah. I mean, it can be a real tricky one, particularly when there's air conditioning. Some people hate air conditioning and don't like it and will put a coat or a cardigan on, and others want it on all the time. So it can be tricky to get that balance right and find the temperature that suits everybody in relation to the workplace. So, it can create issues around.

Certainly, that has come across my desk recently about issues arising over air conditioning and people genuinely not liking it, feeling stuffed up, feeling that it damages their health, and all sorts of issues.

So yeah, I suppose it's a tricky one and a bit of a minefield if you can get maybe that magic number of 22 degrees or 21 degrees, whatever it is, and get things settled at it. But it can create issues as well whenever there is a running start-and-stop with the air conditioning button during the day as well.

Julie:   It is, or the person that has access to the temperature, the thermostat, and all those different aspects of it too.

Okay. And then I think for our last question that we had, it was about upcoming holidays, and so you've got lots of perhaps competing requests. Unfortunately, you can't have everybody off at the same time, so inevitably you may have to say no to someone. You try and work with them, go back and see other dates, or maybe you could partially meet it, but they don't get the holidays that they want, and then something happens and the person calls in absent that day.

We're not going to be cynical, Seamus. We're not going to say anything about people, because imagine that's one of the things that you're going to cover. So your instinct may be, and I'm going to use a local colloquialism, "Do you think I came up the Lagan in a bubble?" But you refrain from doing that, and so again, I know that you'll keep us right and make sure that we're following proper procedures and steps.

Seamus:  It can be very frustrating for employers where they anticipate and know that an employee is going to take leave whenever it hasn't been authorised, and the risk about how that is handled and dealt with whenever it does happen. Very frustrating and can also really anger management and the HR department as well.

So I think it is about trying to anticipate that and not being afraid, again, to have those conversations with a member of staff to say, "Look, you haven't got that leave and our expectation is that you will be in work that day. And we're flagging up that if there is any risk about that, that you need to let us know now". And maybe also highlighting the issues around disciplinary if there was a sudden call in the morning to say, "I'm too sick and I can't come into work".

I think that, again, it's trying to be as open about that as possible. And I think most employers will take a firm and fair approach. You need to be firm about what your policy and procedure is. You need to be clear about what your expectations are.

Again, be clear with the employee as to why the leave can't be given so that they have an understanding of that, and try to take those fair steps of saying, "Well, look, you might have got this week last year. You can't have it again this year because somebody else requires it because they've got a special event on", or something like that.

So I think it is one that arises every year and there's always that question mark over that one employee who will just ring in sick. So it's about trying to temper that in advance.

And then if it does happen, follow your policies and procedures. I think using your return-to-work interview processes for that. Importantly . . .

Julie:   Sorry, Seamus, if I can just break in there. So when you're having the return to work, maybe if you could advise around suggested wording so that it doesn't sound like, "You asked for this day off. Strangely enough, you were sick". Obviously, you wouldn't say that. So how would you maybe kind of start that conversation, or what would you . . .

Seamus:  I mean, I think that it does need to be met head on and I think where there is a genuine concern . . . Again, it's about presentation and the tone and manner that that is raised. But I think that you would want to know the circumstances around the illness. How did they report the illness?

Julie:   Yes. Was it actually them?

Seamus:  Did they follow the procedure correctly? Particularly in and around risks of did they just text? Did they leave a voicemail? How was that all handled and dealt with? And I suppose just dealing with it at the time as well, that if there is a voicemail or a text, the person is telephoned and a conversation takes place in order to get an understanding of what the illness is, how long it's going to last for, when they think they can come back to work.

Those can be difficult problems to have evidence in relation to and to get supportive evidence. And sometimes it's maybe just about putting the marker down and a shot across the bows to say, "We're well aware here. We're not fools as to what has happened. And we're marking your card now in relation to it".

 Or where there is alternative evidence, if the person's silly enough to make social media postings of their events of the day, you could end up maybe with a full disciplinary process having to take place as well.

Julie:   You could. And I think that social media is a favourite topic of yours and something that you're covering for us at Annual Review as well, isn't it?

Seamus:  That's right. Yes.

Julie:   Yeah, always surprises you what people put online.

Seamus:  Yeah. I have few good examples that I can provide on an anonymised basis of course, but . . .

Julie:   Great. So you've talked, really, about trying to pre-empt if you suspect that the person . . . And again, there will be genuine situations, emergencies, illnesses as well, but what we're particularly looking at is almost where even from your HR metrics, you can see that there are patterns where there are certain people and all organisations would be aware that this is the person that takes off the day after the bank holiday or something happens as well. And so it's just about doing that.

So you're saying not going in all guns blazing, very much in the return to work, making sure that they had followed the process, that you're making clear that you're aware that it's the same dates as what they had requested and had been refused.

And then I take it around things like documentation as well, Seamus, it would be important that things like payroll don't just go ahead and really just pay any absence. Well, most HR would have that in place anyway where they would make sure that the self-certification, a doctor/GP sickness certificate is in place as well.

Seamus:  Yeah, absolutely. And again, that should all be set out within the handbook or within the policy and procedure, and that's even a point that can be discussed with the employee before they take their steps that they might be taking. Just alert them to those requirements in the policy and procedure, and the risk that if there's a breach of that or if the documentation isn't provided, those payments can be made.

Julie:   Okay. Great. So everyone, I hope that those have answered most of your questions that you've had today. I think that Seamus, we've really put him through the paces today with lots of different topics as well. So thanks, Seamus, for handling that so well.

I've got one last question that has come in through, and it's about, "If someone agrees to a flexible working request and starts, but then decides that it's no longer required, can it be changed if the business has put a structure in place to support that agreed request?"

Seamus:  Well, usually the position is the flexible working applications. Once they're granted, they come with a permanency. There certainly would be the ability for the organisation to agree to a change to it, but where you've put a structure in place to accommodate that, it can make it very difficult to try to undo that.

I can't remember precisely, but you're time-bound in relation to one flexible working application until you can make another as well. It's not that you can just make another one straightaway. I can't remember the timeframe on that.

But where there have been accommodations put in place and a new structure, certainly I would feel that there would be support for the employer to try to maintain that.

Julie:   Okay. That's great. Thank you very much. So Michael, if you could bring up a couple of last slides for us, and we'll let Seamus take a little break just as we finish off.

So as I mentioned, Seamus is going to be one of our speakers at our Annual Review of Employment Law. It's going to be a hybrid event, so really interesting. You can join us at ICC Belfast, if you'd like, on 7 November in person. Again, great venue. Or if you like the convenience of online, then we'd be glad to see you either way. And we'll have lots of different dual sessions, lots of hot topics as well and the things that you tell us really that you want to learn more about.

And then, Michael, if you can just go on to the next slide for me. Thanks.

So again, today was Employment Law at 11. We do this the first Friday of every month. Seamus and Christine go through your common queries, and they also look at trends that are coming up to make sure that you're at the top of your HR game.

You can also listen to the recording. We'll have that on our Hub for our subscribers, but you can also listen to the podcast as well on Spotify, Amazon Music, and Apple Podcasts as well.

I think all that's left to say is thank you very much for joining us today, and look forward to seeing you next month.

Seamus and I are both on LinkedIn, so again, we would love for you to request to connect or follow us.

Seamus, as I said, is going to share that article with us too from "Irish News" so that you have it as a resource.

So thanks very much, and thanks as well to Michael for offering our tech support today. We'll see you next time. Thanks very much, everyone.

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