In this webinar recording of Employment Law at 11, sponsored by MCS Group, Seamus McGranaghan Director at O’Reilly Stewart Solicitors joins Rolanda Markey from the Legal Island Learning and Development Team, to discuss your employment law queries.

Together, Seamus and Rolanda discuss redundancy consultation and notification; dealing with industrial action – what not to do, and the position for NI employers in employing Ukrainian refugees.

About MCS Group:  MCS help people find careers that match their skillsets perfectly, as well as supporting employers to build high performing businesses by connecting them with the most talented candidates in the market. (www.mcsgroup.jobs)

To view the Webinar Recording and Transcript see below.

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Transcript

Rolanda: Well, good morning, everyone, and welcome to Employment Law at 11 sponsored by MCS Group. MCS help people find careers that match their skillsets perfectly, as well as supporting employers to build high performing businesses by connecting them with the most talented candidates in the market. If you're interested in finding out how MCS can help you, then please head to MCS . . . sorry www.mcsgroup.jobs and MCS also sponsor our podcast and as you know all of our webinars are now turned into podcasts. You'll be able to listen to this again on your headphones as you're walking along the beach at the weekend.

So you're very welcome. Morning and excuse me, something's popping up on my screen. Just get rid of that. Zoom wants to start for some reason. No, I'm in . . . Go to it. So good morning, everyone. Sorry you lost the waffling. I'm Rolanda and part of the learning and development team at Legal Island. I'm joined by Seamus McGranaghan, Director at O'Reilly Stewart Solicitors. For anyone who's new, you're very welcome to our Employment Law at 11 series which happens on the first Friday of every month. And in that we discussed the top sort of employment issues happening out in the last sort of month or so.

Poll Results

So before we move on just to our discussion, as always, we have a few poll questions for you just to sort of get your blood flowing and get your fingers working. So first of all, the first question, we are going to be talking today about employment of Ukrainian refugees. So would your organisation be interested in employing refugees from Ukraine? So yes, no, or perhaps you're unsure. If you could just select which one applies. And we'll give that a few more seconds to see. And then Katie will share that. Okay. Oh, good. Well, 57% are unsure. So that's good. Hopefully by the end of today's webinar, you'll have a bit more understanding of what's involved in that, and you might change that to yes. But 39% of people are and we'll talk a wee bit more about that in the webinar.

The next question then, is obviously there's been a lot of industrial action notifiable at least. So what we just wanted to find out is, you know, do you think you know, can an employer communicate with employees who they have been notified or going to be going on strike or taking industrial action? So do you think you can communicate with employees who are going on strike? Yes, no, or again, are you unsure? So if you could just vote there and we will be discussing this during the webinar. Okay, well, maybe take that there, Katie and see what . . . Oh, well, that's good. We have a knowledgeable audience so 64% think you can. So fully look at that in a minute and 30% are unsure.

Okay, final poll question. Then again, just relating to redundancy and obviously, we're going to talk about redundancy and the whole situation with P&O. So how much advance notice must be given to NISRA, which is operating on behalf of the Department for the Economy regarding multiple redundancy. So this is relationship to the notification of redundancies, and so do you think it's 10 days, 30 days, 90 days, or you're not sure? Perhaps depends on the number of redundancies that are being proposed. So again, if you just vote on that, select which one you think applies. Okay, maybe stop that there, Katie, and see what our results are. And so we've a mix there, 40% or 40% depends on number of redundancies, 90 days for 31%. So what do you think, Seamus? That's probably I would say that, you know, everybody's right, perhaps in what they've selected.

Redundancy Consultations

Seamus: Well, nobody went for the 10 days, so we've 0% on it. And yeah, I mean, I suppose, look, the answer shows it depends on the number of redundancies and maybe just to mention that at this stage, I know we're going to talk about consultation periods and things like that. But just always remember when you're going through the redundancy process that if you're making 20 or more employees redundant, that the intention or the proposal is that it's going to be 20 or more, you must notify then measure and measures at the government organisation, it's the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency, and you must notify them.

The general rule is that the employer must notify of any proposals at all to make more than 20 people redundant at one establishment, and the establishment is generally case law says it's the site where the employee is assigned to work. And so if you've between 20 and 90 redundancies, if the proposal is to make between 20 and 99, sorry, 20 and 99 redundancies, you must notify at least 30 days before the first dismissal, or if it's more than 100 redundancies, you must notify 90 days before the first dismissal. And the date of the notification will actually be the date that NISRA receives your notification, and you submit the notification by way of the HR1 form.

And so it's not an overly complex situation. I did one just fairly recently back in October time when we were going through a redundancy process and notification through to NISRA. The reason why we do that and the basics for that are that it's a process of notifying NISRA that there's potential of redundancies. And then it also means that government can prepare and the various government agencies can prepare for the potential redundancies so they can do things like notifying local DSS offices that there might be a number of applications that are coming through the local job centres. They might notify local advisory agencies that are within the area of where the redundancy are being made.

So for instance, just say that if the redundancies are in the Ballymena area, they might contact the local agencies there to say look, you might get a number of calls, we're just giving you a heads up that this going to happen. And it also means that the job centres will know that there's going to be availability, they can advise potential employers of that also actually trying to assist and help. So that's the reason for the notification.

But what I would say is, always bear that in mind, you must . . . it's a legal obligation for you to provide that obligation. And you should also remember that if you're going through your collective process, that you're notifying the representatives and also the representative should also receive a copy of the HR1 form that you submit to NISRA as well as their information. And you do send out a lot of information in the HR1 form. It's not a complex form, but you're giving information in relation to the numbers, the place of the of the redundancy, and the reasons for the redundancies, and things like that.

There is the aspect that if you fail to do it, that you could be subject to, you know, penalty, or fine, and there is a defence where if it wasn't reasonably practicable for you to comply with the minimum notification periods and but you must make every effort that you can in order to do that. If you don't do it, you must be able to give reasons and explain as to why you haven't been able to do it.

So bearing in mind recent events with P&O and the concern that that has raised for everyone that works within HR and employment lawyers. You know, I think roughly it was around maybe 80 or 90 people were affected in Northern Ireland. I think it was a total of maybe 100 all in, but, you know, simply to be told, you know, leave, you're being made redundant and comments such as that are obviously very concerning. But there would be that obligation that if you are notifying and the circumstances are over 20. And if you think about P&O and the numbers they had, and even if it was within the smaller number within Northern Ireland, they still have a duty to notify NISRA and just wanted to flag and point that out.

Rolanda: Yeah, so that's the notification, which is obviously separate process from the consultation, which is another thing that people didn't do. So, you know, I suppose, you know, can you talk around, you know, the consultation, the collective consultation, what's involved in that and what P&O should have done perhaps?

Seamus: Yeah, well, I mean, the general position then is the way that I would term it is that if you're making less than 20 people at your establishment redundant, you're probably looking at what are called an individual consultation, individual redundancy. Where it's more than 20 at that one establishment within a 90-day period, then that is known as collective redundancy. And really good and best guidance, I'm not sure if we've got it up or available, maybe we can look at that afterwards. The Labour Relations Agency do have a guidance in relation to redundancy itself, fairly recently updated also. And look, you'll find most of the information in and around that, again, it's a bulky enough document but it's really user friendly and easy to read.

But generally, where collective redundancy will come into effect sort of three ways. One, if the business is closing or it's downsizing and in terms of closing an element of the business down and the employer doesn't need as many employees any longer, or if there's a reorganisation or reallocation of work, or there's actually a communication of the work itself. That tends to be where you get larger numbers which will trigger the point of collective consultation.

And the general rule of thumb is always that employers should always consult with an employee before making any employee redundant and the purpose of the consultation is to provide the employee with an opportunity and a way to look after and influence that redundancy process. And as well as the other important aspect is that if the employer doesn't consult and that there is a penalty in relation to that. There's an award for a failure to inform and consult under the legislation and you're looking at essentially a penalty, a protective award as it's known. I'm sure you would have come across that plenty of times within your previous role at the LRA, that you're looking at a 90-day period, or 90-day penalty in relation to that 90 days gross salary.

But you can see if you think about it logically you can understand the necessity of the reason for consultation on why it is so important to consult. The type of information that you're looking to get across initially and certainly what the legal obligation is, is that you have to disclose certain types of information. There's a specific timeframe for doing that also, and that and, you know, from whenever that the sort of timeframe starts whenever you have a proposal that you're going to make those redundancies, you need to start that consultation process at that point.

And what's important as well is that your organisation may be unionised. You may have one trade union. You may have a number of trade unions involved in your organisation. And you may not have any trade union whatsoever. And that can be real difficult process wherever you don't have a trade union involved because you're still obliged to go through collective consultation. And that is tricky for employers, particularly small to medium sized employers that maybe, you know, where there's no trade union involved, but they're over that 20, potential of 20 redundancy threshold and they have to engage in collective consultation and then they have to provide, I suppose, guidance to the employees about looking at electing representatives and things like that.

But trigger is once you know that that the proposal is there, you are obliged then to commence with the consultation process. Ideally at the very start of this, you're getting commentary from the union or from the elected representatives, or if it's an individual process whereby you're feeding in as to what the process is going to be. So the type of information that you're looking to provide is, you know, the total number and the description of the proposed redundancy. So how many people are going to be affected and what type of employees are going to be in fact affected? Is it just employees in one department? Is it all admin staff? Is it all factory workers that work on a particular production? Those that sort of information needs to be provided.

You need to also give details around the proposed selection method. What is the selection method going to be? And that's the real interesting aspect. If you get into litigation, a lot of the time the selection is the issue. But whether the selection is going to be based on an agreed policy and procedure that was already contained in the handbook, whether you're going to negotiate the procedure through the consultation process, or that what are the factors that you're going to use to maybe score? Are you going to interview those sorts of things and the like

And the proposed procedure and the time limits for carrying out the redundancies really important they see that you are fair with employees and you give them a timetable. You give them a timeframe and let them know. So your guiding point will be what are my obligations here on consultation, and it's very similar, and in fact, it's the same if we go back to the NISRA position. If you are looking at the 20 to 90 day . . . 20 to 99 employees, it's at least a 30-day consultation period and if you're more than that one, if it's 100 or more, then you're in for that 90 days. And don't get confused because the position is different than England. And if it's more than 100, it's only 45 days in England, and you will get employers or you'll get clients that will contact you and say and no, I checked out on ACAS and he said well no, need to look at the Labour Relations dates to remember that you have to look at the jurisdiction here in Northern Ireland, specifically because there are subtle differences but important differences as well.

But you can see that there then it's also looking at the ways to avoid redundancies. Are you putting it out to say if anybody wants part time, voluntary redundancies, if anybody wants to look at a reduction in their working hours or the way that they work, and then also being really clear about what the reason is for the redundancies and that goes that if the redundancy happen to be genuine redundancies? So what is the reason? Is the reason because we have lost our contract and we no longer supply the work under that contract? So we're going to have a reduction in work. Is it because we're reorganising? We can do things more efficiently. We've brought a new computer system in and we don't need as many employees now? All those sorts of things need to be communicated because that assists the representatives to be able to give feedback and suggestions in terms of how they could possibly look at saving jobs or alternatives to redundancies and things like that.

And then when you get into the actual consultation process and the thick of it, you're looking at avoiding redundancies and at reducing the numbers at risk and mitigating the effects of dismissal on effective employees as well. And thing that we point out is to say that, you know, just be aware that the duty to collectively consult, again, it starts when the proposals are in place and there's clear case law on that. It's not always clear whenever you look at it, and if you get into a difficult sort of litigious case about that, the courts they'll go through, they'll want to see when the proposals were made, the meetings and the minutes of the meetings, the notes in and around the whole process. And it would be interesting to see thinking about P&O, you know, did somebody just decided in a board meeting we're going to axe 800 employees and that's it? You might have saw some of that stuff that they were talking about in Parliament as well. And I think the chief executive of P&O had to attend committee at Parliament and explain that position. You could see the real anger and annoyance that the people had in relation to it.

But generally, you know, the reason for the consultation is to really look to provide, be fair and provide information and give a fair opportunity for people to comment on that. And then moving through that process about looking to avoid redundancies, reemployment and all those sorts of aspects. And legally, the position is if you fail to consult, the likelihood is that it will be a penalty kick in relation to an unfair dismissal claim. Now you can obviously make arguments in relation to that. And I see that one of P&O's arguments were that if we didn't take these steps, the business was going to collapse. That was their . . . They were saying if we did not do that, the business was dead and this was an attempt to save the business. Other things as well in redundancy cases when you get to tribunal, if the decision . . . even if you mess up the process, you know, it may be that you're saying well, look, it was going to happen in any event. So even if we handled and followed the process completely end to end and dotted our I's and cross our T's, the person still would have been made redundant. That can be considered by a tribunal. But where there's a failure to consult, there's an automatic right for the protective award. Which if you're talking about looking at over 800 employees, it could be a significant sum of money on top of unfair dismissal claims.

Rolanda: Yeah, and the redundancy money as well. So if you just joined us, you're joining Seamus and Rolanda Employment Law at 11. We're just been discussed and redundancy consultation notification. If you have any questions, don't forget to drop them into the question box there. And we just have a wee question just on redundancy. I love this question because it's one of those ones, sorry, Seamus. It's really hard to answer, So, you know, I suppose when is the ending of a fixed-term contract, you know, that lasts two years, when would that person be entitled to a redundancy if it's ending because fundings ran out? Or you know, it's not redundancy, the employers is saying it's some other substantial reason. When is somebody entitled to redundancy pay in the termination of a fixed- term contract?

Seamus: Well, the general rule is after two years you have a statutory entitlement to redundancy. What a point that is, want to talk about protective award, that 90-day sum, that's a gross sum in relation to the 90 days, Rolanda. I just wanted to mention also, that you don't have to have your 52-week statutory period of continuous employment to obtain that protective award. It kicks in earlier than that, and a lot of people will say, "Well, look, I don't have an entitlement to redundancy itself. But I do have my right my protective award."

My understanding in relation to that the ending of a fixed-term contract is that if the person reaches that two-year entitlement, the redundancy process kicks in on that. I stand to be corrected in that. I probably need to go back and have another look at it. But logically, the position would be that you know that if it's fixed term and it's temporary and after four years it becomes automatic, then unless there's a good reason or a reasonable reason not to provide the permanency for the role. Whenever you're coming to end a fixed term contract, if you're over the 52 weeks threshold, you should be going through the proper procedures in any event, through the disciplinary and dismissal procedure.

And redundancy is an interesting one when you think about it because if the term of the contract was only ever to be for the two years, and then or if it was a year and then extended by another year, and you know, provided you can justify that the reason for the termination of the contract at that point. But I'm nearly sure, don't quote me on that. I will have a look and we can get clarification on that after this. But once the two-year period has hit the entitlement for redundancy.

Rolanda: Yeah, I mean, I suppose it's fair. This is the reason why the employment is ending, you know, if somebody is I suppose they're in a fixed-term contract to cover somebody and that person returns to work, then that probably doesn't meet the definition of redundancy because the job is still there.

Seamus: It's still there. Yeah.

Rolanda: Yeah, but if it's funding and the funding ends, you know that job ends, so it is one that's probably worth just looking a wee bit more into. If you have any specific queries in relation to the person that has emailed that in, you know, follow up with us on that.

You talked a wee bit, Seamus, about, you know, the procedure in when it comes to making people redundant. So you've got your consultation period, and I think I'm right in saying that when it is a collective redundancy like that the statutory three-step procedure doesn't apply. But, you know, should an employer perhaps offer an employee right of appeal in a . . . because it's a termination of employment, essentially?

Seamus: Yeah. Well, I certainly think that if the employee lodges an appeal, that the employer should be deal with the appeal. I don't think that they should be saying, well, no, it was a collective redundancy process. So just to talk about that a bit. And where you have a collective redundancy process, there are some of the statutory procedures that don't apply as they normally would. And it's quite difficult to get clarity in and around all of that. You do need to look closely at the legislation, Labour Relations Agency's code of practice does say that there are circumstances where the statutory dismissal procedure doesn't apply. And it then refers you on to the statutory or sorry, to the code of practice in relation to disciplinary and grievance. And then it does refer to Article 216 of the Employment Rights Order 1996, the Northern Ireland order, and it does say in circumstances where the dismissal is one of a group of redundancies covered by the employer's duty of collective consultation with appropriate representatives.

I think there's a number of factors that are involved. I think that you would need to look at the size of the organisation and be careful about those that didn't engage in the collective process and so, you know, you can still consult individually through that process as well. And also, I think if individuals do request an appeal, you should deal with the appeal.

As regard offering a right of appeal, again, I think it does come down to resources that are available. And I think best practices if you're trying to be a fair and reasonable employer, I think it's reasonable to offer an appeal if you're dealing with a set limited number of people. But in circumstances where there is a large-scale redundancy where there has been trade unions involved, you'd be much more comfortable with them know the collective process, knocks that out and you don't need to deal with the appeal.

Rolanda: And I guess if you're, I mean, closing a  business].  know there's probably little point in appealing here because there's no alternative.

Seamus: I was just going to say, Rolanda, where you . . . the person does submit an appeal and you give it consideration before you reply back to the person if you think that there's difficulties for the organisation, proceed with the appeal because likely it is the employee is going to the tribunal anyway. And, you know, make a claim, and so it might be the best thing to review it. But the hesitancy can calm that, there can be a feeling that if you made a mistake on one or there's an error along the way, that might impact a lot of other people.

Rolanda: Okay. Just we're going to move on from this area, but there is a question there and it's probably just for us to clarify on that. So in a collective redundancy, should an employer also carry out individual consultation?

Seamus: In the collective redundancy, you can do it. The collective redundancy should cover everything off in relation to that process, but you can also look to . . . or look to consult individually with all of the employees directly and offering them, you know, individual consultation meetings and things like that. I did read through some of the some of the documentation. There's certainly encouragement to consult individually as well. And certainly, think where your approach on an individual basis, you should be dealing with that person.

Rolanda: But there's no legal obligation, I suppose, just to clarify that to do both?

Seamus: No, I think where you're in a collective process, and I think dealt with that way deal with it through the collective process.

Parental Bereavement Leave Regulations Northern Ireland 2022

Rolanda: But you know, good practice obviously something different. Before I move on just to look at industrial actions, it may be worth just mention the parental bereavement leave regulations are being published today.

Seamus: Yeah, that's right. We're now clear and aware that the parental bereavement leave regulations Northern Ireland 2022 to give it its proper title, they come into effect on the 6th of April. So they come in next Wednesday then is the 6th of April, I think. And you know that they provide for bereaved parents who are employees that take up to two weeks leave from their job and, and that's called parental bereavement leave and they can do that in the 56 days following the death of the child and the child has anybody that is under 18, or for parents that suffer a stillbirth in 24 weeks. And there are interesting aspects around the legislation. I know that Legal Island have published a helpful guide this morning on it on your normal Friday update. So worthwhile giving that a read and having a look at it just in relation to notice periods that need to be provided and when they don't need to be provided. And in relation to those two weeks, they don't necessarily have to be consecutive weeks. They could be taken one week and then the second week as well.

But good news that we've been talking about that for a long time. It's good now that has been brought in and there's also additional legislation in and around and the payment, the statutory payment and things like that as well. It all comes in at the same time on 6th of April.

Rolanda: Yeah, there was a real flurry of activity last week in Stormont before it all closed

Seamus: Absolutely. You can see things be pushed through. Yeah.

Industrial Actions

Rolanda: Yeah, it's good to see progress. So in relation to industrial action then, we asked the question just earlier whether you thought as an employer you could communicate with employees that you've been notified that they are part of a group that's going to be taking industrial action. So what are your thoughts on that, Seamus? Can employers communicate? What should they communicate?

Seamus: Yeah. So, you know, the obvious concern for any employer would be that if you have a situation where there is industrial action, they're generally will be the direct liaison with the trade union that is involved. And there can be sometimes concerns that contacting any of the employees that they might say something wrong, or they might just be wrong to do that, and that they should liaise and consult directly with the trade unions.

I think the starting point in relation to that, maybe just give a bit of a definition in and around industrial action. It's tied as concerted stoppage of work or actions short of strike. We hear about that a lot. And that is taken by the employees in contemplation of furtherance of a trade union dispute. And I know that we've had quite a lot of strike actions going on over the past number of weeks. And I see there on BBC NI, again this morning there is further strike action happening in the in the I think Education Authority is where the action is happening today. But you do and you'll see it as well. I think two Fridays ago outside the Housing Executive building on Adelaide Street, there was a picket line. And there was a number of . . . there might have been NIPSA might have been the the trade union might be involved. I can't remember but I do remember passing them and people, you know, will give their support by tooting their horn and all that sort of stuff. And equally, I'd say Queens as well. There's been action happening.

The basis of it is that lawful industrial action is action of creating a response to a ballot for industrial action. Three types of ways that have happened really the industrial action strike, where the workers refused to work for the employer, and where there's action short of strike, where they take actions such as working to rule, go slows, overtime bans, all sorts of things, too, as well in a way to frustrate the employer and absolutely, by not attending work, it's a breach of contract if you're going on strike.

But there are special protections. For employees when it comes to industrial and disputes. There's also lockout which is where there's work stoppage where the employer stops workers from working. So, in general, I would say employees are protected against getting dismissed and for taking industrial action, provided that their trade union follows the proper procedure whenever they're organising that. They will be protected. The industrial action itself is protected. And if the dispute relates to a trade union, I'm sorry a trade dispute between workers and their employer, a secret ballot has been held by the majority of members voting. Sorry, and the majority of voting members have supported the action and that there's a detailed notice about the action that's given to the employer at least seven days before it commenced in. The laws changed in England, maybe 14 days in England now. But the employer should be made aware of the position in respect of the strike. The employer has to have certain information when the strike is going to happen. And idea in terms of how it's going to affect the workforce and the business on the day or the days of the strike.

There is an ability and it certainly does happen that employers will write directly to employees. They will provide information to their employees. And you can think as well that it can be quite an anxious time for employees in relation to be concerned. What impact will my decision to strike and not attend work, or my decision to form joining that picket line outside of my place of work? How will impact upon me? Lots of different things where the employer can provide clarifications in and around what pay will they receive, if any? What will be the impact on their on their roles? What happened at work while they are striking? And all of those sorts of information can be provided.

Now what the employer shouldn't do is, you know, essentially harass or bully or intimidate employees or try to move them away from their rights that they have. And the appropriate way is that if the employer feels that the strike action hasn't been properly and fairly completed in and around the balloting and things like that, that's a matter where the employer should be writing directly to the trade union almost like a pre-action correspondence notifying the trade union of their concerns about the strike action that they maybe that they feel that it is illegal, and given an opportunity for that to be resolved. If it's not resolved, the usual way is that there is injunctions thought from the court to prevent actions happening. We'll all be familiar that the airlines always tend to be one that we hear about because it tends to the affect us in the summer whenever we're trying . . . Well, whenever we could go on holidays, maybe we're getting back to that now.

Rolanda: Yes

Seamus: That will happen whenever, you know, busy peak times where you would see a number of the airlines and particularly there's a number of good cases there were British Airways have gone to court to obtain injunctions. And they've won some and they've lost some, but there's a very specific step that the union have to take. Often it is open to scrutiny by the employer. So you need to be careful around that but certainly look, I think it's good practice for employers to have communication with the employees, to let the employees know what the circumstances are going to be in and around strike that happens, particularly those concerns around, you know, what will happen to me? Is my job protected? Do I lose my creative continuous employment? What is the position on pay? And the general position is that if you strike, you don't get paid. That's the general position. But the employees need to have all of that sort of information readily available to them so that they can make informed decisions.

Rolanda: Like just when you mentioned pay, somebody has asked a wee question there. Because sometimes the union will make a payment to people who take industrial action. So, you know, the question is really is it legal for the union to do that? I suppose it's up to the union if they've got the funds to do that. But, you know, the employer basically doesn't have to pay the employee when they take industrial action.

Seamus: Yeah, and it will depend on the union. I suppose a lot of people were thinking possibly that they're making contributions every month to their union, that there may be some sort of entitlement. Those are the throes of industrial action and the concerns that it throws up for employees and the employer obviously.

Rolanda: Now you mentioned picket lines. There have been a few. So it's probably worth just visiting and just, you know, what are the rules around I suppose picket lines and many people can be there. I remember Scott sent me once, you know, because you know that group The Flying Pickets?

Seamus: Yes.

Rolanda: It means that you're not allowed to kind of take people from one picket line to another. That's obviously where that group was formed. So talk a wee bit about picket lines, maybe in numbers and . . .

Seamus: Yeah, the nature of picketing, it's used as a way of increasing support for industrial action. So we've all driven past or we've all walked past where employers, had news where the employer . . . where some of the employees have been out the front of the venue or the building and they are picketing, they are protesting, and they're seeking support in relation to the dispute that they're having. And, essentially, the picket is where you where the workers that are involved in the industrial action attend the workplace and they seek the increasing support that they have. And the picket line itself is where those employees gather on or near the entrance usually of the employer's premises. And you'll usually have those workers that are on strike or locked out or the trade union representatives are normally present as well. And the target, if we say that word target, the target of activities, may be for non-striking employees, substitute workers or suppliers that are providing and well anything at all to the business.

But it's lawful for the employee to join a picket line and provided that it's connected to a trade dispute the employer is involved in and that carried out orderly near the workplace and that it's carried out peacefully. Most of the picketing that we that we see is done peacefully. But there can be mass picketing times where there is significant numbers of people, where the police have to attend, and where there could be potential issues that arise. And so I suppose if any of those sort of three things were . . . it isn't connected to a trade dispute or where it isn't carried out peacefully, the employer or potentially a member of the public contact police and allege that there has been a breach of law. The other side of it would be that an employer could look for damages in respect of any business loss as a result of unfair picketing or illegal picketing that happens.

A couple of things just to point out about it, Rolanda, I suppose. Criminal offence at times if there's picketing, criminal offenses in relation to use of threatening or abusive words or behaviour or acting in a in a threatening manner towards others passing by or passing through the picket line. And if you're getting in the way of people and you're trying to prevent them from entering them or leave a premises, that can be criminal activity. If you're in possession of any kind of offensive weapon, people will normally have placards, they will have things when you think about some of these sort of more larger things that happened, whether they've been violence and things like that have broken out. Maybe people have taken objects with them. If there's damage to the property, that's another issue, or whether that's deliberately or whether it's done recklessly, or whether there's a cause of a threatened breach to the peace, because of that. But generally, these things are well organised.

There is a code of practice on picketing, and I'll just show that there from the Department for the Economy. I think you're putting that up into . . .

Rolanda: Yeah, I dropped it into the chat there.

Seamus: Into the chat. And I'm roughly, I mean, it does say that the Department for the Economy recommends that pickets and their organisers should ensure that in general the number of pickets doesn't exceed six at any entrance to your workplace. I suppose that will depend on size and everything else, but that's the guiding principle that's set out.

And also just to mention that any employee has the right to cross the picket line as they say, and if they don't support the industrial action being taken. And sometimes people do make decisions where they say, I'm not supporting that or like I need the money, I can't afford to do that. NI Direct do say that if you are an employee and you're threatened by other employees, because you have crossed the picket line, that you report that to the police, and obviously again, if it's not peaceful, if it leads the violence or abusive behaviours, intimidation, obstruction, it will fall under criminal law and there could be action in relation to that.

And there's also a general one as well. There's like a citizens' version as well where and there's a right of individual citizens and not to corporate entities or businesses, but they can try to prevent or stop industrial action if the action is likely unlawful or if it will prevent the citizen from receiving goods or services or is likely to reduce the quality of goods or services obtained. So there's a piece on NI Direct about individual rights to try to try to stop it.

But in general, I think we find it here, we usually hear about the strikes before on via media, and there is an obligation for the union to advise and let people know and where there are public services affected. You know, where there's been infractions and things like that not happening. That people should be aware of that.

Rolanda: Yeah, notified. And just before we move on, there was something I heard on radio ulster last week, and they were talking about something never heard before, but I think was the Education Authority were asking for kind of special, can't remember the term, dispensation for like a particular group of workers to be excluded from the industrial action. And so that, you know, that's something that obviously can occur. And I think in this particular case, it didn't happen, but I wasn't aware of that sort of thing happening before but obviously it can.

Seamus: Yeah, I think it was that maybe in and around children with special educational needs?

Rolanda: Survivors. Yeah.

Seamus: That's specifically needed. I mean, the thing is that there should be all of those discussions ongoing between the trade union and the employer. There should be a negotiation and I think that there should be open and open conversations happening so that there is that line of communication, particularly around public services and things, as well.

Employing Ukrainian Refugees

Rolanda: But yeah, so sorry, we dropped that picketing Code of Practice just and link to that in the chat there if you're interested in reading that. Okay, just move on to our final topic, a few minutes still to go. And obviously, the government has made it easier some would say for Ukrainian refugees to come and work in the UK including Northern Ireland. So what's the sort of legal position, Seamus, if you did want to? I think there was a number of people there who working to employ some Ukrainian refugees. We are going through a bit of a skill shortage so it's perfect timing in a way.

Seamus: Yeah. There is I mean, so if you go on to . . . and I actually see when I checked during the week there that there's actually a . . . Yeah, NI Direct have updated. They have now specific like Q&A on their website for the Homes for Ukrainian scheme. And this is the scheme where you can essentially register and it's what will be known as a local sponsorships scheme for Ukraine. I think that the figure . . . the only figure I could get for this, Rolanda, was back on the 18th of March. I think Brandon Lewis had said and Parliament in Westminster that there have been over 6000 people in Northern Ireland at that point had registered for the scheme. And under the scheme, it's a sponsorship scheme for Ukrainians that don't have family in the UK so you can obviously . . . there's a traditional Ukrainian family scheme whereby that permits family members of British nationals, UK settled persons and some others to come and stay in the UK. But you would need to have . . . if you're Ukrainian, you need to have that link.

But they have set up this other scheme which is known as a local sponsorships scheme for Ukraine and it's there for Ukrainians with any family in the UK, and it permits sponsorship including communities, private sponsors or local authorities to volunteer and to sponsor refugees from Ukraine because of the ongoing crisis and more that's happening. Those that come under the scheme, they will be granted for an initial period of 12 months and will be able to work and access public services for that period of 12 months as well. And you can go online, you can register your interest. And you can say that you want to be a sponsor of an individual or family, and you can volunteer to be matched quickly with Ukrainians that are in need. And under the scheme there is a payment made of £350 per month. You can't charge rent and you can't charge for accommodation services or anything like that for anyone that staying with you, so you can get this payment of £350. You don't have to provide food or meals. Obviously, you can do that if you want but there is this ability to the access that under the scheme.

And I suppose that the thought has been moving to where we may have certain industries that are really struggling. We've covered this on our podcast before, particularly in hospitality where there are . . . there's such a shortage of skilled and unskilled workers. My understanding is as well that there is a huge number of Ukrainians that are very skilled in relation to IT. And again, we have a shortage of that. So there is a benefit to maybe looking at the scheme and if employers are encouraged by that that they could speak with their . . . they can either register or they can have staff that can register in terms of maybe filling in some of those gaps that we have.

And certainly not talking about taking advantage of anybody that has gone through a very difficult time. And so there's clearly a possibility there that employment could be provided. And the employment that is provided is provided on the basis of our employment law and under Northern Ireland. So it's not that somebody would come as a refugee and that would be paid less or anything like that in terms of normal entitlement. You know, the employer has to adhere to the law regulations here at the minute. So I think we have around 6000 people that have applied in Northern Ireland back on the 18th of March. I'm sure those numbers have increased since then. And you know, there's opportunities for this to work both ways and to be positive both ways.

Rolanda: So in terms of how long can you employ somebody then, you know, who comes in through this scheme, how long are you able to lock the employment for?

Seamus: Wherever they come in under the scheme, the home office guidance is that it's an initial period of 12 months. I don't know what will happen after that and whether or not there will be resolution and people maybe wanting to return home or maybe people will settle and decide that they want to process other applications through the home office in relation to getting settlement and things like that as well. But the initial period is for 12 months and just on radio also this morning as well. They were talking about . . . there was a local lady on had I think it was through the scheme. It wasn't that this was a family member or anything like that. And there was just queries around that some of those refugees have come in through the Republic of Ireland. And then we're going to be settled in Northern Ireland by people through the sponsorship scheme. And they had got clarification eventually from the home office to say that even if you don't come into Northern Ireland via the UK and you come through the Republic of Ireland, that you still get access for services. But they did say that it was an initial period of six months. So I'm not sure if there has been some change in and around depending on what way that person arrives. And but certainly 12 months is what the scheme sets out.

Rolanda: Okay Just one last question then because we're a wee bit over time, but somebody asked the question, Seamus, just about support worker rules that require police checks, you know, how would that work? I take it they still need to be done?

Seamus: Yeah, funnily enough. I was looking on that guidance that I referred you to. It does talk about checks being carried out and conducted and specifically, it had said about . . . let me just see if I can put my eye on that, which is typically that I can't now whenever I mentioned it. But they said about . . . see. Yes, what safeguarding protections will be put in place? And it does say safeguarding measures have been put in place to protect the safety of anyone that comes to stay in Northern Ireland. Measures are also in place to ensure sponsors are safe and protected. So I assume that there still will be those sorts of checks that need to be conducted and carried out as well. And I think that if you're in specific roles where you would normally have AccessNI check, or there be some sort of vetting and done that would still need to take place.

Rolanda: And yes, thank you very much. I'm sure you're quite tired after that. That was a lot we went through there. So I hope that you all got some benefit from that. As I said earlier, our webinars are turned into podcasts and so you'll be able to listen to this again on podcast. It'll also be up on the website, and podcast were also sponsored by MCS Group.

Just moving on then our next webinar is on the 6th of May, 6th of May. And we talk about we see what's hot then and we will let you know in advance. We'll also have our next comparative supplemental update with Lewis Silkin on the 23rd of June. So thank you all for joining us. And thank you very much, Seamus. And hope you have a lovely weekend.

Seamus: Thank you.

Rolanda: Goodbye, all.