We live in a diverse society and successful organisations are increasingly recognising the benefits it can bring.  Embracing and supporting diversity, including neurodiversity, can help organisations reach out to and attract staff from a wider talent pool, with new ways of thinking and problem solving emerging as a result. A diverse workforce is also better equipped to engage more effectively with a diverse customer base seeking solutions.

Organisations that fail to embrace diversity within inclusive workplaces risk litigation, reputational damage and finding themselves unable to attract and retain the kinds of customers, employees, and business partners that will flourish in our changing world of work in Northern Ireland the next 5 to 10 years.

This webinar presents the opportunity to discuss ideas to attract, support and retain a diverse workforce. We’ll look at examples of organisations which are successfully making diversity - and neurodiversity in particular - work for them to deliver tangible business benefits.

Speakers: Paul Gillen, Partner, Pinsent Masons and Louise McQuillan, Workplace Solutions Manager, Texthelp

Transcript

Scott: Good afternoon, everybody. This is Scott Alexander. I'm from Legal-Island. Thank you very much for listening in to our webinar. Today, we're going to be looking at diversity and inclusion issues, particular emphasis on neurodiversity.

I'm joined by Louise McQuillan, who is workplace solutions manager at Texthelp, and also joined by Paul Gillen, who'll be known to many of our listeners, a partner at Pinsent Masons. And we're broadcasting live from Belfast, so if you hear noises, it's because we're live in Belfast.

You'll see in front of you a little chat box, a little question box. If you have any questions you want to ask, you can do so.

So the reason for this particular webinar is we're looking at . . . I suppose we live in a diverse society and it's pretty, I think, accepted now that the more successful organisations become increasingly inclusive, as well as diverse.

We're looking particularly today at neurodiversity, and we'll come to what that actually means, but effectively if you don't embrace diversity and inclusion, then you won't succeed going forward, particularly as millennials and Gen Zs come through. So we're going to look at some of those issues today.

Poll Questions

So first of all, as usual, we'll start off with a little poll. And you'll see the first question there. So if you want to say yes . . . it's all anonymous, by the way. We don't know who's voting. But does your organisation employ or have any neurodivergent employees? For example, those labelled with dyspraxia, dyslexia, ADHD, etc.? One hundred per cent yes. Well, there you go. That's a pretty simple one. Everybody has organisations with neurodivergent conditions.

Two, if yes, which is all of you, what if any types of reasonable adjustments have you made to facilitate neurodiversity in your workplace? So tick any that apply. Everyone's providing staff with the right tools to do their job. Nobody's done anything else. It's 100% for one answer. Well, that's totally at odds with what happened on our last webinar on D&I.

Third question, have you engaged any third-party assistance to help make reasonable adjustments to support neurodiversity? We'll just wait on you clicking up there. That was almost a reverse of the last one. Fifty per cent are saying yes this time. Okay. So when we did this with our Ireland listeners, those south of the border, before lunch, it was 0% actually. So here we go. It's 60/40 at the moment.

And final question for our audience. Has your organisation had any discrimination claims arising under Equality Legislation relating to neurodiversity? At the moment, it's 100% no.

So it doesn't give rise to too many claims. You all have a neurodiverse workplace in front of you. You've all taken reasonable adjustments, and many of you have brought in third-party support. So that's all very interesting.

What is meant by the term Neurodiversity?

Scott: Let's move on. Louise McQuillan, you're from Texthelp, so it would help, I think, this audience if you could maybe explain and outline the concept of neurodiversity. What is it and what does it mean?

Louise: Yes. So the term neurodiversity, if you're not aware of it already, really means the range of differences in an individual's brain function and behavioural traits. So it's actually quite a broad term for a number of different conditions. So, when we talk about neurodiverse individuals, we're referring to people with dyslexia, ADHD, autism, coordination conditions, cognitive processing conditions. So it really is a broad range for a number of different terms.

But not only that, it can also refer to people who have acquired neurodiversity. So not necessarily something you've been born with. There may have been brain injury at some point during your life, which has affected then your ability to do certain things. So that's really a broad kind of description of neurodiversity and what it means.

Scott: Would it include people who . . . I don't know. What's the alternative to neurodiverse? It's not "normal". What's the word?

Louise: Neurotypical is what we refer to. So the UK averages . . . about 15% of the UK population are neurodiverse and the rest fall under neurotypical. But, you know, the more research we find, it does seem that everybody has some kind of neurodiverse trait, but it's more prevalent in certain individuals and that's where the conditions have come through.

Scott: That's why you hear that some people are on the spectrum because some are quite extreme neurodiverse than others. So certain elements maybe.

Louise: Neurodiversity, it's one of the broad things that . . . with neurodiverse skills, you have a lot of skills that can actually benefit in the workplace. I think with neurodiversity, some of the conditions I talked about there are dyslexia, ADHD, autism, they do tend to have a bit of a negative connotation. A lot of people see it as barriers to employment. "Do we want to hire somebody who's dyslexic? They're not great at spelling. They're not great at literacy. Autism, low concentration rates, we'll have to keep them focussed."

But actually, for individuals with these conditions, they have so many traits for an organisation you would want to have in your organisation. If you're looking at the likes of dyslexia, you're looking at creative thinkers, innovative thinkers. I mean, I suppose two of the biggest, well known probably entrepreneurs, you've got Richard Branson and Steve Jobs, both dyslexic and they were both very open about that. But the roles that they have had, the things that they've created have changed the way we use technology, we travel the world. So it's very creative and innovative thinkers that have dyslexia.

Again, with ADHD and autism, you think, "Oh, they'll not be able to concentrate", but actually they have really fine detail processing. So, they can see things that neurotypical people may never be able to see.

And I know particularly the GCHQ were looking for people with autism in terms of code breaking, because that was a specific skill, they knew people with autism had. So, for that particular role, somebody with autism fit at that perfectly.

So, what we're trying to do is break that stigma and actually look at the strengths that people with neurodiverse conditions have rather than looking at the barriers that people presume they have when working in the workplace.

What are an Employer’s legal obligations towards neurodiverse employees/applicants?

Scott: Okay. So, we'll move it on to Paul from Pinsent. You've heard Louise here chat about various issues, including the recruitment idea, if you like, but what's the law that governs disability in Northern Ireland, in particular in relation to neurodiversity? And what might be an employer's obligations?

Paul: I think the important thing, as Louise said, is there is a range or a spectrum of neurodivergence and not all neurodivergence will be classified as a disability, or indeed if it is, that it will have an impact on the person at work. So, it's important to consider both those points.

But the starting point where it is a disability is to look at the Disability Discrimination Act of 1995. And the starting point there is whether there is a condition that can be defined as a disability. And clearly under the DDA, conditions are considered to be a disability where there's a physical or mental impairment, but it also has to tick the boxes that it has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on a person's ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities. So, you can see there that neurodivergence could tick those boxes.

Where it does tick the boxes then, the obligation on the employer is to ensure that those people with a disability are on an equal footing in the workplace. And that means that if there are any provisions, criteria, or practices, commonly known as PCPs, that could include work conditions or equipment, then that disadvantage is narrowed by the employer having a duty to make reasonable adjustments.

And therefore, what the employer needs to do is to see what impact the condition has on the individual in the workplace and to see then if they need to put reasonable adjustments into place.

Scott: So, in Northern Ireland, we don't really have disability-related discrimination because the law didn't change here after the Malcolm and Lewisham case, but every employer has a duty to make reasonable adjustments. So, it turns out more or less the same thing. If you put something in place, if you have to fill in a multiple-choice thing, which is difficult for some people on the neurodiverse radius, if you like, you would have to consciously think about could you make a reasonable adjustment to assist that person enter that qualification or enter that that job role, if you like.

Paul: Yeah, so the law is where you know or you ought to know that a person has a disability and there is any impediment to them in the workplace, that there is a duty to make reasonable adjustments. So, for a neurodiverse employee, this could be a range of potential adjustments.

And a recent case 2018 in the tribunal was Mr T Sherbourne v N Power Ltd, the tribunal did find that there was a failure to make reasonable adjustments where the employer had changed the working environment, and an employee who was autistic and had an anxiety condition was asked to move to a busy open plan walkway where he had to work, but also that there was an agile working to the workplace where no one had specific desks.

And what the employer didn't consider was that that had a detrimental impact on that employee. So, he wasn't able to concentrate, wasn't able to change desks and not have an impact there as well. So, what the employer should have done is to consider for that individual employee of whether they needed to adjust how they were working.

But it also is wider than that. It can be physical features. So, for example, if someone has difficulty with access and IT, then things like the assistive text programmes through Texthelp could help that person in the workplace.

And then the other thing that you do in terms of the adjustments is look at your policies and procedures. For example, someone who's neurodivergent may have a difficulty being at work at 9:00 a.m. because it's difficult to travel in public transport with a lot of other people, but they could make it in 8:00 a.m. or 10:00 a.m. And therefore, what you would have to do there is to consider whether that adjustment will be reasonable for the workplace.

Scott: So, it varies from employer to employer. It varies from employee to employee. So most people listening are in HR, most of them. They would be hearing all about this agile working. Everyone thinks agile working is fantastic, but for some people, it doesn't work.

But one aspect of agile working is varying hours, and therefore bringing in that flexible working to avoid the particularly busy periods, it might work for others. And then you've got the situation where, you know, you're hot desking, and so it's like you will almost have maybe ringfence a couple of desks and say, "You're in that neurodiverse group. They like certainty. They like to see things that are regular and so on, so let's keep a couple of desks not hot", if you like. Is that what you mean? Each case on its merit?

Paul: Yeah. I think that's important thing in terms of reasonable adjustments. I've had clients phone me and ask what adjustments should be put in place, but it differs from workplace to workplace, but also for the individual employee. And it's not a one plan fits all. You have to look at the specific impact on the employee. You have to look at the condition and therefore, you make the adjustments from that.

And the important thing is that you don't simply do this by yourself. You can involve occupational health. You can get outside assistance as well. Disability NI and Autism NI, these are people that are skilled to come in and help you out.

But the important thing is getting that assessment done, find out what adjustments are recommended, and then consider what's reasonable for your workplace.

What reasonable adjustments can employers make for neurodiverse employees?

Scott: Okay. Well, let's delve a little bit deeper into some of those reasonable adjustments. And I know at Texthelp . . . I mean, you started off working in schools with kids that had dyslexia or autism or whatever, and that's moved on into the workplace. So what does that mean in reality, and even some of the things that you've done for folk with autism?

Louise: Yeah. Well, as you kind of summarised there, we started off as an ed tech company. So, our journey really started from supporting students as they're in the workplace, secondary school, college, university, and really continuing that nurturing environment where students had the opportunities they had to reach their academic levels.

But what we find is once they were leaving education, they were going into the workplace and all of a sudden that nurturing, supportive environment often disappeared. Workplaces were much more competitive. People didn't want to share any disabilities or any conditions they had that deemed that they wouldn't be fit for whether it's promotions or certain roles, because they felt that it would have been looked at negatively on them.

So, what we are trying to do now is work with organisations to really increase that education piece and show the benefits of, first of all, employing individuals with neurodiverse conditions, and then supporting those individuals throughout their career. And not just from the recruitment point. If a situation changes throughout their employment, making sure that they have access to the support.

There are a couple of examples that we have worked with. One quite recently was with South Yorkshire Police over in England, and they had a senior member of staff who had started off as a PC. So, he'd come in through the academy, worked his way up, so his career progression just improved and improved over his career.

But when he got to a certain point in his career, he was writing reports, emails, dealing with press, more senior members of staff, and he was having to write large pieces of information. And all of a sudden, he realised that he was really struggling to do this. So, in his 50s, he realised that actually there was something else happening here. He got his assessment and realised he is dyslexic in his 50s.

So he had been through his whole working life, through education, never needed any support, or far as he was concerned, never needed any support, and it was only then in a change of rule that he realised that this is where the support was coming in.

So what we did was we provided South Yorkshire Police with Read&Write, which is our assistive technology software. And what that allowed him to do was proofread his own work. So if he could read back his own reports, hear if there were any errors in the documents, fix them himself.

We also then had additional tools . . .

Scott: Excuse me. That would speak back then because he couldn't read it on the screen. He didn't know that he was making mistakes.

Louise: So essentially, he was reading the document out. As far as he was concerned, it was reading perfectly. But when he read it back, he could hear where there were forced errors in the document so he could go back and fix them.

It also allowed him to learn where he was maybe continually spelling a word wrong. He could have spelt that wrong his entire life and nobody ever said to him, nobody ever brought it up. But all of a sudden, if he's providing reports to senior managers, to the press, to chief inspectors, you know, and especially in criminal cases as well, you don't want information to be spelt incorrectly.

So for him, that was obviously a confidence issue as well. He didn't want to be providing work that was incorrect. So that gave him the confidence to complete work in the way that he was confident that he could share, and then also develop his own learning of literacy and language as well.

Scott: Okay. You had another example that we were chatting about over lunch there about you darken screens or something along those lines, is it?

Louise:  Yeah. So obviously, we've talked a lot about neurodiverse conditions and how that can affect, but more often than not, sometimes it's just the situation you're in can actually prompt you to need assistive tools.

For us at Texthelp, we've recently taken on a new building and we have a lovely bright office space. It's great. There are loads of colours. We have beanbags and pods. It is a great working space. However, the only one drawback is we have very, very bright lights. So, if you're sitting in the office all day, if you maybe need to adjust your screen, we have a screen tent that you can put on different colours and it softens the screen for you. So, it actually makes it easier then to read your emails, read your reports, read your documents.

But for me, for example, I wouldn't necessarily say I need assistive technology every day. But in certain days, I will need it because I've been sitting at the desk for too long.

So again, it's just making sure that the support is available there, irrelevant of whether you've been classified with a neurodiverse condition or you just need the support to do your job.

Scott: Okay. So those are some tools that take away the stigma, if you like.

Should an employer have a have an organisational strategy towards neurodiversity?

Paul, I know that Brook Graham is part of the Pinsent Masons empire, shall we say, and specialises in D&I consultancy and such. So, what are some of the kind of things that . . . we've got some of the practical software packages and such, like Texthelp and others produce. What about Brook Graham? Why would they as consultants come in and help managers who are listening, people that are listening today? One hundred per cent of them have got neurodiverse workforce individuals that may need some of those reasonable accommodations that you were chatting about. What would Brook Graham and Pinsent do?

Paul: So, Brook Graham came about . . . it was a consultancy that we used at Pinsent Masons to come in and look at our own diversity and inclusion. It is central to what we do as a law firm and we wanted to see how we stacked up to see whether we were doing things correctly and what we needed to change.

So, they come in to do an audit and then create our strategy going forward, to the extent where we felt that that was an important add-on that our clients would need to someone that could come in and look at the strategy.

And I think for us working with Brook Graham and then when we actually bought them as a consultancy was their ethos. And their ethos is that everyone's different, but that we believe that there's one thing we all have in common and that's that we're unique. So, it's the uniqueness that I think is at the centre of a diversity and inclusion strategy, whereas a lot of employers will see it as treating everyone the same. Brook Graham break that down and say that's not the case for D&I.

And so what they do is they go in and they provide audits to businesses in terms of diversity, but ask what the company goals are, where are you now, where do you want to be in the future, and then create a strategy to achieve those.

And the important thing that they do is to say, "Well, look, individuality is the important bit to D&I, and let's break it down into to that micro detail".

So, for Brook Graham, what they do is they look at the strategy of what you need to reach your goals. But the other bit that's important is that they teach you not to pip over the cracks. There will be blips and bumps along the way. You know, they use the old cliché that it's a journey and not a destination, and they certainly see that there will be times when the strategy just doesn't work, and you have to re-evaluate it.

So, they give an example of one of their clients that had a clear neurodiversity strategy in place. Everyone knew what it was. All the employees had been trained. But then there was a deadline that was looming and a neurodiverse employee who had autism missed the deadline and that led to a bust up with the employees. That really damaged the diversity and inclusion strategy.

And what Brook Graham did was simply go in and see that as a blip. Just accept that these things will happen. Work with the employees, work the employer to deal with the issue at hand. But then more importantly, how do you repair the damage?

So, the important thing is constantly work on it. So, it's not one of those things that, in HR or a business concept you have a policy and procedure and that's where it ends. You have to re-evaluate as you go through, and that's what Brook Graham does. They certainly partner with our clients to do that.

How can an Employer create a more inclusive work environment for neurodiverse individuals?

Scott: I know that Pinsent Masons . . . I mean, you're renowned for, I suppose, your diversity and inclusion qualifications, if you like. You're winning awards. You're doing all those kinds of things. I suppose there are some organisations who are in that space, if you like. They want to be identified because you want to be seen as an employer of choice. And there are all those kinds of things, and yourselves and Brook Graham would do all of that.

But if there were an organisation that were maybe starting out, Louise, and saying, "Okay, I'm trying to get involved in here, become a more neurodivergent-friendly workplace", where would you recommend, they start?

Louise: I think that is the big challenge for a lot of organisations. It's how do they approach the subject of neurodiversity. Obviously today is the International Day of People with Disabilities, and it's great that we're actually talking about it on this day.

I think with physical disabilities it's very obvious that there are certain things you can do to support individuals, but with hidden disabilities or neurodiverse conditions that people can hide from their employers, and often have spent most of their life probably hiding or in fact, some cases, don't even know that they have these conditions, I think one of the big things for organisations to start and do is to have the conversation.

If they are creating that inclusive culture, that inclusive organisation, staff are going to feel more open to disclose that they do have a condition, that they need a little bit of support.

So I think it's definitely around the framing of the language, having those open discussions, and making people feel that they can come forward to discuss and try and get the support that they need.

Scott: Well, language is difficult. And Paul was chatting about Brook Graham seeing things as unique and so on. So for me, the more important work in Northern Ireland is probably inclusion around diversity, because we're not that diverse. If you look around even in this room, we're not that diverse, but within Northern Ireland society because of just the way the structure is and because it's not London.

But that inclusion part means you have to include people who get things wrong. Paul, you chatted about a blip. But the language scares a lot of people. I put my foot in it quite a lot. The language is changing.

So even we were chatting before this thing came on, and not many people use Asperger's now, but hey, it was made famous by "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time" and all those kinds of books, and the Rosie books and so on.

So what about that? How do you bring individuals in and make it safe, not just for somebody who's neurodiverse but someone who is neurotypical? How do you do that? How do you soften the language?

Louise: Actually, thinking about the words that you're using is a massive thing. We were at an event a couple of months ago, where it was Graham Whitby, who does a lot around accessibility. He was working at Channel 4 at the time and he had said as part of their initial recruitment process, they asked individuals to disclose their disability, and they had about a 3% disclosure rate that that's what people were using.

They knew there were more people. They knew there were people in the organisation that hadn't disclosed. So, they trialled a rewording of the phrase. So, they said "share their disability" rather than "disclose". By changing the word from "disclose" to "share", it increased to 11%.

So sometimes, the terminology we're using is too formal. People see it as a formal process. I have to disclose. There's going to be a form. There's going to have to be a process, whereas if you just say, "Share with us what it is that you have. We can support".

I think you talked about it as well, about how it's individual to a person. What one person's support need is and one person's condition is very different from somebody else's. So, having a one size fits all for "everybody with dyslexia is the same, everybody with autism is the same, everybody with ADHD is the same" is not the approach you should take.

So again, it's those conversations. What is your condition? What way do you want it referred to? What support can we offer? Do you want your line manager involved? And then trying to get people from different teams involved as well.

I think often people sort of think it's with HR, that that's the accommodation team, that they'll look and talk with the language. But actually, it needs to be from the organisation. So, having those networks, disability networks, is a great way of getting everybody from different teams involved, so they're more aware then at an organisational level of what's happening and the conversations that are being had.

I mean, there are so many resources out there. There are so many organisations as well that have guides and hints and tips as well. So, if you are kind of at that initial starting point of "Where do I start?" there are definitely loads of ways. You can find out more information and I'm happy to share some of the resources of organisations we work with as well around that support piece and creating that diversity and inclusion piece.

Scott: Thank you. Paul, from a legal point of view, people starting, you've got those conversations, there's an opportunity . . . you mentioned a blip. There's an opportunity for grievances. There are all kinds of things that could kick in there, but legally I don't suppose that's an argument to not do something.

Paul: Yeah, I think that's part of the problem. Louise mentioned about language and certainly from a legal standpoint . . . I shouldn't really say this as a lawyer, but the law, when you talk about legal compliance for things like disability, people see that as a tick box, and "We're legally compliant, so aren't we great?" That's not D&I. That's straightforward legal compliance.

And for us, it's more about a cultural shift. So it's how you put in place a workplace that is inclusive for everybody. And you have to go right back and say, "That's inclusive for each and every individual". So, if somebody is autistic, that's different than another member of staff who is autistic, and you have to break it down into what is it right for that individual.

So when you see it as legal compliance, then that's the wrong place to be. Certainly, that's the bare minimum, but once you move beyond that, you'll want to look at the culture overall. So your policies and your procedures certainly have right, but not that they sit on a shelf and gather dust. You make those alive. All your managers, your employees, are all alive to diversity and inclusion within the workplace.

And for us at Pinsent Masons, what we do is we work with our clients on various strategies for D&I - but keep it simple.

The first thing is to learn. So, we use the acronym of LEAD, and the first one is Learn. Listen to people within the workplace. What are they saying? Where are you getting it right? Where are you getting it wrong?

And the second one is Engage. You know, Louise said that there are resources out there. Don't try and do this alone, because you don't have all the answers. And certainly, there are organisations out there, or there are other members within your sectors that will be able to help.

The A in the LEAD is to Adopt and Adapt. So, it's not simply, "Here's our D&I policy, our neurodivergent policy". How is that working? So, evaluate. Ask your employees, ask focus groups that you have within your organisation.

And that leads to the final bit of Develop. Don't see it as a tick box you've got in place. Certainly, be flexible and willing to make changes when you need to.

Scott: Okay. Well, thanks very much for that acronym. If you are listening, we will have the transcript up probably in a couple of weeks, but you'll be able to listen back hopefully this afternoon, but certainly by tomorrow, if you want to catch up on any of those particular details.

Paul, again, from a legal aspect, you're trying to do the right things as an employer, you're trying to be diverse, you're opening things up, but there are opportunities and things could go badly wrong.

And going back to this inclusion thing, inclusion means including the people who are in the majority. Inclusion means including the people who may not like LGBT rights, who may not like neurodiversity, who may not like lots of other things. What's your advice there? Just bulldoze through.

Paul: Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people will say, "What do you normally do with naysayers?" so the people that say, "Well, we're against neurodiversity because it causes us more problems than it's worth", or, "We're against LGBT rights because it's not where our background is". And to simply close that down is the wrong thing to do. And what we do is we use this as an opportunity to have a conversation.

And I would much rather educate someone that said, "Well, you know, we're having a problem with an autistic employee". Well, what are the issues you're having with them? Is that because we haven't put something right for the employee? So, don't close down the conversation. Have the conversation and educate.

Scott: I supposed it's all about recognising that having a variety and a difference in your organisation reflects society. You were chatting earlier, Louise, about having somebody with autism on the team and therefore, they see things in a different way, and they bring a creativity, if you like. Your Bransons of the world, who were dyslexic and such.

So, is there anything else in there about bringing people in? I'm particularly thinking of moving at the area of confidentiality, because an individual . . . you mentioned the word disclose. You then said, "Well, maybe we'll use the word share because it's softer". But lots of disabilities are quite embarrassing, and they're quite embarrassing if you discover early on that you have some kind of condition that you didn't realise because you thought you were the bee's knees and suddenly it says, "No, that's why you act that way".

So, what about that balance between confidentiality and being difficult to be inclusive if you don't know that anyone's different because they haven't disclosed it?

Louise: Yeah. Well, I mean, you can see organisations . . . there are a lot of big names now that are here shouting about equality and diversity. And I think what you have to do . . . confidentiality is obviously the key thing. And if people don't want to share that, that is completely their right to do so, as long as they feel comfortable and supported to do their role. That's the most important thing. But again, you want them to be in that inclusive environment where they can share.

I think for so many organisations now, the importance of having individuals from neurodiverse backgrounds in your staff is so important because, again, they can then be a resource for you. If there are people who are having issues in a particular area who perhaps are autistic, but you can lean on other individuals and say, "What do you think?" and look for advice within the organisation.

So again, the more individuals you have from those different backgrounds, the better it benefits your organisation as a whole.

But then also, the services that you're trying to provide, whether it be product, services, whatever it is, if you're designing these to support the smaller groups, overall, they're going to support everybody.

Should neurodiverse individuals disclose this to employers or potential employers?

Louise: So yes, as much as you would have to respect that confidentiality, the more open conversations you can have where people feel free to go, "Yes, I don't mind if my line manager knows", or, "I'm happy to help other individuals who may be facing the same thing", is better for the organisation in the long run.

Scott: So it's better for the organisation. It's probably better for the individual because you can be as open as you like. Paul, legally speaking, you're dealing with sensitive information, special category information under the Data Protection Act. There's nothing much you can really do if somebody says, "I don't want that out there". And there are potential difficulties for an employer if you do disclose without agreement.

Paul: Certainly, as Louise said, you have to have that agreement that you can disclose, or the person may wish to disclose themselves. But there are other ways of dealing with those things as well, such as if you look at the NOW Group and they had the JAM Card where an individual can have that and show it if they choose.

But you also have to have the background with your employees that they're properly informed, they're properly trained how to do these things, how to embrace inclusivity in the workplace. There is no point working with a neurodivergent employee saying, "Wouldn't it be great if you disclosed this to your work colleagues or to the wider teams or the employees?" when those employees haven't had training, because you're just setting yourself up for failure. So, I think you have to attack it from both ends.

Scott: Okay. Thank you very much to you both. If you are listening . . . I don't see any questions coming in the chat. You've been a very quiet bunch. Obviously very attentive, but you haven't written any questions.

We have another webinar coming up this Friday on Christmas parties, if you want to go onto the Legal-Island website.

We also have a gala, a diversity and inclusion gala, on the 3rd of April. Pinsent Masons and ourselves will be putting on a practical D&I event on the 2nd of June. Details of that to follow in due course.

The transcript of this, like I said, will be available in a couple of weeks. You should be able to listen back to this tomorrow and share the link with all your friends and family.

And if you need further advice, we'll send you on details of Louise and Texthelp and Paul and Pinsent Masons in due course. So, if you do have any other questions, send them in and we'll deal with them when we can.

But thank you very much for now and have a lovely Christmas when it comes. Cheers. Bye.