Rolanda: Yeah, it's good to see progress. So in relation to industrial action then, we asked the question just earlier whether you thought as an employer you could communicate with employees that you've been notified that they are part of a group that's going to be taking industrial action. So what are your thoughts on that, Seamus? Can employers communicate? What should they communicate?

Seamus: Yeah. So, you know, the obvious concern for any employer would be that if you have a situation where there is industrial action, they're generally will be the direct liaison with the trade union that is involved. And there can be sometimes concerns that contacting any of the employees that they might say something wrong, or they might just be wrong to do that, and that they should liaise and consult directly with the trade unions.

I think the starting point in relation to that, maybe just give a bit of a definition in and around industrial action. It's tied as concerted stoppage of work or actions short of strike. We hear about that a lot. And that is taken by the employees in contemplation of furtherance of a trade union dispute. And I know that we've had quite a lot of strike actions going on over the past number of weeks. And I see there on BBC NI, again this morning there is further strike action happening in the in the I think Education Authority is where the action is happening today. But you do and you'll see it as well. I think two Fridays ago outside the Housing Executive building on Adelaide Street, there was a picket line. And there was a number of . . . there might have been NIPSA might have been the the trade union might be involved. I can't remember but I do remember passing them and people, you know, will give their support by tooting their horn and all that sort of stuff. And equally, I'd say Queens as well. There's been action happening.

The basis of it is that lawful industrial action is action of creating a response to a ballot for industrial action. Three types of ways that have happened really the industrial action strike, where the workers refused to work for the employer, and where there's action short of strike, where they take actions such as working to rule, go slows, overtime bans, all sorts of things, too, as well in a way to frustrate the employer and absolutely, by not attending work, it's a breach of contract if you're going on strike.

But there are special protections. For employees when it comes to industrial and disputes. There's also lockout which is where there's work stoppage where the employer stops workers from working. So, in general, I would say employees are protected against getting dismissed and for taking industrial action, provided that their trade union follows the proper procedure whenever they're organising that. They will be protected. The industrial action itself is protected. And if the dispute relates to a trade union, I'm sorry a trade dispute between workers and their employer, a secret ballot has been held by the majority of members voting. Sorry, and the majority of voting members have supported the action and that there's a detailed notice about the action that's given to the employer at least seven days before it commenced in. The laws changed in England, maybe 14 days in England now. But the employer should be made aware of the position in respect of the strike. The employer has to have certain information when the strike is going to happen. And idea in terms of how it's going to affect the workforce and the business on the day or the days of the strike.

There is an ability and it certainly does happen that employers will write directly to employees. They will provide information to their employees. And you can think as well that it can be quite an anxious time for employees in relation to be concerned. What impact will my decision to strike and not attend work, or my decision to form joining that picket line outside of my place of work? How will impact upon me? Lots of different things where the employer can provide clarifications in and around what pay will they receive, if any? What will be the impact on their on their roles? What happened at work while they are striking? And all of those sorts of information can be provided.

Now what the employer shouldn't do is, you know, essentially harass or bully or intimidate employees or try to move them away from their rights that they have. And the appropriate way is that if the employer feels that the strike action hasn't been properly and fairly completed in and around the balloting and things like that, that's a matter where the employer should be writing directly to the trade union almost like a pre-action correspondence notifying the trade union of their concerns about the strike action that they maybe that they feel that it is illegal, and given an opportunity for that to be resolved. If it's not resolved, the usual way is that there is injunctions thought from the court to prevent actions happening. We'll all be familiar that the airlines always tend to be one that we hear about because it tends to the affect us in the summer whenever we're trying . . . Well, whenever we could go on holidays, maybe we're getting back to that now.

Rolanda: Yes

Seamus: That will happen whenever, you know, busy peak times where you would see a number of the airlines and particularly there's a number of good cases there were British Airways have gone to court to obtain injunctions. And they've won some and they've lost some, but there's a very specific step that the union have to take. Often it is open to scrutiny by the employer. So you need to be careful around that but certainly look, I think it's good practice for employers to have communication with the employees, to let the employees know what the circumstances are going to be in and around strike that happens, particularly those concerns around, you know, what will happen to me? Is my job protected? Do I lose my creative continuous employment? What is the position on pay? And the general position is that if you strike, you don't get paid. That's the general position. But the employees need to have all of that sort of information readily available to them so that they can make informed decisions.

Rolanda: Like just when you mentioned pay, somebody has asked a wee question there. Because sometimes the union will make a payment to people who take industrial action. So, you know, the question is really is it legal for the union to do that? I suppose it's up to the union if they've got the funds to do that. But, you know, the employer basically doesn't have to pay the employee when they take industrial action.

Seamus: Yeah, and it will depend on the union. I suppose a lot of people were thinking possibly that they're making contributions every month to their union, that there may be some sort of entitlement. Those are the throes of industrial action and the concerns that it throws up for employees and the employer obviously.

Rolanda: Now you mentioned picket lines. There have been a few. So it's probably worth just visiting and just, you know, what are the rules around I suppose picket lines and many people can be there. I remember Scott sent me once, you know, because you know that group The Flying Pickets?

Seamus: Yes.

Rolanda: It means that you're not allowed to kind of take people from one picket line to another. That's obviously where that group was formed. So talk a wee bit about picket lines, maybe in numbers and . . .

Seamus: Yeah, the nature of picketing, it's used as a way of increasing support for industrial action. So we've all driven past or we've all walked past where employers, had news where the employer . . . where some of the employees have been out the front of the venue or the building and they are picketing, they are protesting, and they're seeking support in relation to the dispute that they're having. And, essentially, the picket is where you where the workers that are involved in the industrial action attend the workplace and they seek the increasing support that they have. And the picket line itself is where those employees gather on or near the entrance usually of the employer's premises. And you'll usually have those workers that are on strike or locked out or the trade union representatives are normally present as well. And the target, if we say that word target, the target of activities, may be for non-striking employees, substitute workers or suppliers that are providing and well anything at all to the business.

But it's lawful for the employee to join a picket line and provided that it's connected to a trade dispute the employer is involved in and that carried out orderly near the workplace and that it's carried out peacefully. Most of the picketing that we that we see is done peacefully. But there can be mass picketing times where there is significant numbers of people, where the police have to attend, and where there could be potential issues that arise. And so I suppose if any of those sort of three things were . . . it isn't connected to a trade dispute or where it isn't carried out peacefully, the employer or potentially a member of the public contact police and allege that there has been a breach of law. The other side of it would be that an employer could look for damages in respect of any business loss as a result of unfair picketing or illegal picketing that happens.

A couple of things just to point out about it, Rolanda, I suppose. Criminal offence at times if there's picketing, criminal offenses in relation to use of threatening or abusive words or behaviour or acting in a in a threatening manner towards others passing by or passing through the picket line. And if you're getting in the way of people and you're trying to prevent them from entering them or leave a premises, that can be criminal activity. If you're in possession of any kind of offensive weapon, people will normally have placards, they will have things when you think about some of these sort of more larger things that happened, whether they've been violence and things like that have broken out. Maybe people have taken objects with them. If there's damage to the property, that's another issue, or whether that's deliberately or whether it's done recklessly, or whether there's a cause of a threatened breach to the peace, because of that. But generally, these things are well organised.

There is a code of practice on picketing, and I'll just show that there from the Department for the Economy. I think you're putting that up into . . .

Rolanda: Yeah, I dropped it into the chat there.

Seamus: Into the chat. And I'm roughly, I mean, it does say that the Department for the Economy recommends that pickets and their organisers should ensure that in general the number of pickets doesn't exceed six at any entrance to your workplace. I suppose that will depend on size and everything else, but that's the guiding principle that's set out.

And also just to mention that any employee has the right to cross the picket line as they say, and if they don't support the industrial action being taken. And sometimes people do make decisions where they say, I'm not supporting that or like I need the money, I can't afford to do that. NI Direct do say that if you are an employee and you're threatened by other employees, because you have crossed the picket line, that you report that to the police, and obviously again, if it's not peaceful, if it leads the violence or abusive behaviours, intimidation, obstruction, it will fall under criminal law and there could be action in relation to that.

And there's also a general one as well. There's like a citizens' version as well where and there's a right of individual citizens and not to corporate entities or businesses, but they can try to prevent or stop industrial action if the action is likely unlawful or if it will prevent the citizen from receiving goods or services or is likely to reduce the quality of goods or services obtained. So there's a piece on NI Direct about individual rights to try to try to stop it.

But in general, I think we find it here, we usually hear about the strikes before on via media, and there is an obligation for the union to advise and let people know and where there are public services affected. You know, where there's been infractions and things like that not happening. That people should be aware of that.

Rolanda: Yeah, notified. And just before we move on, there was something I heard on radio ulster last week, and they were talking about something never heard before, but I think was the Education Authority were asking for kind of special, can't remember the term, dispensation for like a particular group of workers to be excluded from the industrial action. And so that, you know, that's something that obviously can occur. And I think in this particular case, it didn't happen, but I wasn't aware of that sort of thing happening before but obviously it can.

Seamus: Yeah, I think it was that maybe in and around children with special educational needs?

Rolanda: Survivors. Yeah.

Seamus: That's specifically needed. I mean, the thing is that there should be all of those discussions ongoing between the trade union and the employer. There should be a negotiation and I think that there should be open and open conversations happening so that there is that line of communication, particularly around public services and things, as well.