In this months Employment @11 webinar we were delighted to welcome Mark McAllister of the Labour Relations Agency to discuss strikes, rising costs, and union-busting.

Childcare costs are always in my mind because they are absolutely extortionate. I think since 2010 a survey said they've gone up by the average of £2000 a year for working parents. So, really, it is a catch-22. We need to work because we enjoy work. We need to earn money. But we also need to pay for childcare, and you feel you're caught between the two.

 So there are other options out there, aren't there, Seamus? I suppose we should kick off with are there any schemes out there to help with the cost of childcare?

Seamus: Well, there are schemes, Christine. I suppose what might be helpful, just kicking things off, I've come across an article that Clodagh Rice at the BBC had actually done in November 2021. And at that time, we probably weren't paying a huge amount of attention to this. But just taking from the very last point there made by Mark, there is this issue of rising costs. And it also looks like the childcare providers that are out there are also at present increasing their costs because they're having to heat, light, cook food. All the things that we're having to do at home are having to be done in the childcare provider as well.

So it's just interesting that back in November 2021, BBC were reporting here in Northern Ireland about concerns in relation to childcare. I know we hear about restaurants closing at the minute and things like that. This was reporting what some of the childcare providers were reporting because it just wasn't working out in terms of costs for them.

There is also a really up-to-date survey there that is done by the Employers for Childcare. A childcare survey said in 2021 that the average cost for a full-time childcare place in Northern Ireland was £170 per week and £186 per week for a day nursery and £166 a week for a child minder. So those are the sorts of figures. You're probably well aware of these things.

Christine: Too much, Seamus.

Seamus: No doubt there is. And there were variations in relation to that also. In County Antrim, the highest average was £174 a week. In Tyrone, it was £150 a week. So you can see variation across the board there. And the costs of that are no doubt going to just simply increase as well.

There are a number of schemes that are there and available at the minute. The main one is probably the Tax-Free Childcare scheme that we have in place. And it allows for eligible working families to claim 20% of their registered childcare costs up to a maximum of £2000 per year. If you have a child with a disability, that increases to £4,000 a year. So there is some differentiation made there.

And for a family to be eligible, just to cover off on that, both parents need to be working, or one person in the single household, if it's a single-parent family, can benefit from it as well. They need to be earning the minimum £152 pounds a week, which equates to the 16 hours per week on the national minimum wage. And it's a variation of between £152 a week and right up to £100,000 a year. So if you have two people with a combined income of £190,000 in the house per year, they can still benefit from the Tax-Free Childcare scheme.

In relation to that, we do have the Childcare Voucher Scheme that is now closed for new applicants, but it still is on-going. So if you were registered with the childcare scheme prior to October 2018, I think it was, then you can still benefit from that. And that's essentially a salary sacrifice scheme where you are sacrificing part of your salary that goes into your childcare, and you're saving on the costs in relation to that.

For others out there, the position in respect of Universal Credit, we've seen different variations and different titles of all of this. It's all very confusing. But bottom line is that you get a monthly payment for people that are in or out of work. And if you're working, your Universal Credit payment you can include an amount in that, and it covers up to 85% of your registered childcare costs.

So that is benefit for maybe lower-income families that are working through that process on the 16-hour contracts and things like that.

Just to mention the point that the Universal Credit is means tested. So it's not a one-size-fits-all, and it very much will depend on your circumstances that you have and number of children and things like that as well.

And the last main one is the working tax credits. We hear lots about it. And the working tax credit, again, change of name, now comes under Universal Credit, but it's money there that's provided to boost the income of working people who are on a low income. And it can include an element towards your registered childcare costs as well.

So those tend to be the main schemes that are there. And you do look at it taking a step back from it and think, "How much actual assistance is there in relation to parents?" It is difficult, and there's no doubt about that. And I can only see those costs increasing.

Christine: Yeah. I don't think I can get through a webinar ever without mentioning Pregnant Then Screwed. They are my favourite organisation and they talk about this all the time. They compare the different models of childcare provision in different countries. The Swedish model, Swedish people expect to pay high taxes, but they also expect excellent public services. My brother lives in Sweden and has children and the subsidised childcare there is outstanding, and it is for all.

So I think, in my mind, we need a complete rethink and overhaul and put Pregnant Then Screwed in charge of the government as far as I'm concerned. I love them. They can do no wrong in my mind.

But there are other options for parents to help juggle this school summer holiday. So what kind of family-friendly laws are out there to help us

Seamus: Well, obviously, we're coming into the summer holidays. Children are going to be at home and parents can do their best in relation to trying to find summer schools and summer schemes and things like that, just even to keep children occupied. But there's no doubt it puts pressure on the family home whenever the children are out for the summer.

And it depends on what way the employer works. We saw the poll there in relation to term-time. Quite encouraged by that. But other things in relation to maybe allowing employees to block their holidays maybe for a longer period during the summer or look to amend their working hours, maybe a temporary variation over summer months and things like that.

In relation to leave itself, you have parental leave that is in place. We have maternity leave and we have paternity leave. Those are the sorts of leave ideas.

And then obviously, the more friendly ones that come along the lines of the flexible working applications that can be made or applications, again, for temporary variation of employment. We have definitely noticed an increase in the way that the legislation has moved. It's definitely moving more towards that family-friendly aspect.

And again, from my experience and just from some of the case law that we look at, the tribunals are definitely moving towards a place where you have a higher expectation on employers to facilitate leave for parents. So although you have the legislative provisions, definitely you have the aspect of the case law developing in that way.

And there's a case there, Dobson v North Cumbria 2021, that's an Employment Appeal Tribunal case. And essentially, what was coming out of that is that you have the Employment Appeal Tribunal noting that it's increasingly favouring and supporting employees who have childcare responsibilities. This is the reality that everyone is dealing with.

And there is a willingness to recognise the needs of parents at tribunal level. They said employers should have the same willingness to do that, and that failure to do so could result in possible discrimination claims.

I did a case of mine probably going back 10 years. In actual fact, it's probably more like 15 years. My poor memory. But I do remember I acted for a school in Northern Ireland in relation to the case. And there was an application we had for job share and for flexible working.

The vice president at the time, he's now the president of the tribunals, dealt with the case and made it very clear in that case that the expectation was that in this day and age, it takes a lot for an employer to be able to justify a refusal to not consider or not grant those applications for flexible working.

The obligation isn't on the employer to grant them. The obligation is to give them consideration. But I think as things have moved forward, the expectation of both maybe society and from a tribunal point of view and court point of view makes it a difficult argument.

And I have no doubt to say at the top of our discussions there that the ability to accommodate flexible working has no doubt come around and has been promoted and escalated through the pandemic as well. And just while Mark's here also, I always go back to Practical Guide to Hybrid Working.

Mark: Well done, Seamus. Good man.

Seamus: It's a valuable document and it does assist employers as much as it assists employees.

And I suppose the wider argument, Christine, might also be around . . . It's the aspect of there are huge difficulties in terms of recruitment and retention at the minute across the board, motivation of staff, keeping your staff happy, looking at those aspects of the employer's obligations even from a welfare basis to the employee. Not saying that the employer has to roll over in every single application, but the employer should be giving consideration to that really important aspect of an employee's happiness, their welfare, their ability to do the job. Are they going to have to go somewhere else and work somewhere else if their circumstances can't be facilitated? And I think definitely the pandemic has taken us down a path where we can see that it does bring us on that way.

And interesting enough, not to move to a different space at all, but we do see now that employers are putting pressure on employees to return back to the office. And that's the benefit, and why Labour Relations Agency have been promoting the Hybrid Working Guide so much, because there is an ability to get that compromise between the two parties that facilitates and helps both of them.

Christine: Yeah. You mentioned penalties for non-compliance could include a discrimination claim, but I always think it's fairly unusual. In the Republic of Ireland, we've got family status as a protected characteristic. That is not the case here. So, really, it's women that are protected in these flexible working requests gone wrong type cases, but men are really on a bit of a sticky wicket, aren't they? The law is not skewed to make everyone equal in the family at the moment, I suppose.

Seamus: yeah. And certainly, a lot of the case law that you come across is based on the woman and the different types of less favourable treatment arising, because women tend to be more so the part-time workers. I'm not devaluing the work that's done in any respect at all. That's what the case law says, but that's just the circumstances of why it is. And when you look at doing your comparative surveys and things like that through discrimination cases, that will be one of the things that will come out.

 But I suppose it's just the aspect as well that if you refuse a flexible working application and you haven't given it proper consideration . . . Now, the key thing would be when you get a flexible working application, genuinely go back and report back to the employee all of the considerations. You can take into account all of the business requirements and the resources and the costs and everything else.

                        But the other thing is you're going to have a disgruntled employee. You're going to have grievances. You're going to have an employee that's not motivated. It's factoring in all those different aspects. And then ultimately, if there's a breakdown in the relationship, you end up at a tribunal.

I was talking to a client during the week, and unfortunately having to give the advice back to say they've come through with an appeal letter on a flexible working application. And when I talked through it with the employer, mentally in their head, they couldn't see it working. And I said, "The difficulty here is that you haven't done anything to work through the practicalities of this. You haven't tried and tested it. There are lots of things that you could do, and it actually might work out if you just give it a bit more air time".

It just seemed to be the classic scenario. A decision was made, appeal has come through, panic came on. Just working through those aspects with the client as well, and highlighting the dangerous side and the potential litigation as well.  It all comes forward.