And let's have a look at our next topic. Now this, Seamus, is something that you flagged as you're getting a lot of queries about so I think it's an interesting one to talk about. So the COVID rules and abuse of staff, how to ensure a safe working environment while still complying with the everchanging rules. So we mentioned it's going to be a lot of hospitality staff, retail staff, and medical staff that are going to be in this boat as well as you said HR managers, so I suppose there's a lot of questions around should these staff be the ones policing those rules? You know, a lot of them are younger people kind of student age working maybe in Tesco or whatever. They're the ones having to say put your mask on to people twice their age. Is it okay to put them in the line of fire like that? What duties do employers have and these circumstances, Seamus?

Seamus: Yeah, well, I've had from the change of the regulations came in in relation to COVID passports and the government advice relating to the wearing of masks in public spaces and crowded spaces and things like that. I have had an uptick now definitely in employers contacted me for advice where staff have been suffering abuse essentially from members of the public. And I did just when I was doing some Christmas shopping, I went to a cinema to get a voucher. And I forgotten actually that you have to have the COVID pass to go to the cinema. Thankfully, I had it with me. I wasn't the one giving out about it but in the queue in the cinema, and there was a long queue just to get through that part. And it was a young member of staff that was asking for the site of the COVID passport. People seem to be not aware of it or maybe just didn't have anything to show but I witnessed it and a young member of staff couldn't see a manager around, couldn't see a supervisor, couldn't even see another colleague, what I could see was colleagues that were a distance away that were serving at the confectionery counter, and I was standing thinking this person completely exposed and was receiving abuse. It was nothing mad but definitely abusive in terms of what they were getting. I was thinking to myself that there is an obligation here on the employer. The employer does have to provide . . . has an obligation to provide so far as reasonably possible or practicable is the word and that they're under a duty to ensure the health, safety, and welfare at work of all of their employees. And that is really to see if system of work and the provision of information and training and supervision as is necessary to ensure that there is a proper scheme in place for health and safety.

And so there is this aspect on whether there does need to be training provided for staff. There needs to be risk assessments that are in place and whether helping incidents or issues arising as a result of abuse, how that is dealt with. I mean, what I've noticed are that there is a fear amongst some staff that they don't want that flat frontline role. They don't want to be the person asking for the passport or reminding people of putting their mask on or spraying their hands with disinfectant as you go in and out of retail shops. And so there's an unwillingness for the employee to do that role because of the fact that there has been some abuse and there's also fear amongst staff members in having to do that role.

What has arisen as a result of that is absence because they don't want to come to work as a result of it. And I have a case of resignation where the person has said, "I've had enough, I can't take this anymore." And I've had involvement of trade unions with the employers saying you're not doing enough here. You haven't trained sufficiently and you're not getting adequate supervision in respect to these matters. And then also I've had in addition to the loss of staff, staff that have raised grievances as a result of the abuse that they've encountered, so it's creating problems for the employer at a point where the employer is very stretched. And we'll be familiar with those sorts of incidents or those matters that have arisen for employers where they're saying, for me to put on an additional resource to even look at COVID passports is costing so much money that the business can't afford and then to have somebody else around in terms of managing and supervising that as well as is a whole nother issue.

So it is a bit of, it's a difficult one. I wanted to flag up the backend and this was in October that this was done in England and this was just after the reintroduction of some of the restrictions that have been brought in. "HR Magazine" in England said that up to two thirds of workers were frightened to implement COVID-19 safety measures because of a threat of customer abuse or assault, and 50% of shop, transport, restaurant, and hotel workers had experienced abuse within the past six months and of those, 27% have been physically assaulted.

So it's just to flag up it there that it is a matter of concern. As I say, it will not affect every business. It depends on your organisation, but it is a concern. The onus does fall on the employer to provide the health, safety, and welfare aspect of any employment environment.

Christine: So is it really just about having a zero tolerance approach? I mean, in my local fish and chip shop, there's a sign up saying if you have a problem with wearing a mask, please tell Boris and not us. And so the employers really just have to have an absolute zero tolerance approach as a kind of start to raise issues with your staff and the customers out. But then how do you balance that with actually providing a business, you know?

Seamus: Exactly. It is definitely a minefield. You know, what we do know is that employers have to adhere to the government instructions that are there. And the issue of the mask wearing is problematic because there's so many people that can't wear masks because of genuine medical reasons and there will be a part of that as well that will be just people that don't want to wear a mask. But like that's a difficult sensitive . . . It's a sensitive one for staff to handle. So the main thing really would be to make sure that there is training, appropriate training provided and that there is on-hand assistance for any employees that are going to get into difficulties. I think that is the aspect. I think we all have to realise that those issues are there. But it's about making the employees aware of that and having a process in place to work through that for them.

Christine: I suppose it's about not leaving that young employee out on a limb on their own. Make sure there's another staff working near in the vicinity that can kind of moral support and backup if needed. And it's possible, I suppose, a more senior person that has that authority to kind of make a decision.

Seamus: Yeah. Just to the other side of it is that if an employee is assaulted, there will be vicarious liability for an employer in relation to that. The employee will have an opportunity certainly to bring a claim for the personal injury against the employer and that will turn on whether or not the employer had a proper risk assessment. There was training done, that there was adequate supervision, all those sorts of things will feed into that. And so it's a difficult time.