Julie:  Okay. And then I think for our last question that we had, it was about upcoming holidays, and so you've got lots of perhaps competing requests. Unfortunately, you can't have everybody off at the same time, so inevitably you may have to say no to someone. You try and work with them, go back and see other dates, or maybe you could partially meet it, but they don't get the holidays that they want, and then something happens and the person calls in absent that day.

We're not going to be cynical, Seamus. We're not going to say anything about people, because imagine that's one of the things that you're going to cover. So your instinct may be, and I'm going to use a local colloquialism, "Do you think I came up the Lagan in a bubble?" But you refrain from doing that, and so again, I know that you'll keep us right and make sure that we're following proper procedures and steps.

Seamus:  It can be very frustrating for employers where they anticipate and know that an employee is going to take leave whenever it hasn't been authorised, and the risk about how that is handled and dealt with whenever it does happen. Very frustrating and can also really anger management and the HR department as well.

So I think it is about trying to anticipate that and not being afraid, again, to have those conversations with a member of staff to say, "Look, you haven't got that leave and our expectation is that you will be in work that day. And we're flagging up that if there is any risk about that, that you need to let us know now". And maybe also highlighting the issues around disciplinary if there was a sudden call in the morning to say, "I'm too sick and I can't come into work".

I think that, again, it's trying to be as open about that as possible. And I think most employers will take a firm and fair approach. You need to be firm about what your policy and procedure is. You need to be clear about what your expectations are.

Again, be clear with the employee as to why the leave can't be given so that they have an understanding of that, and try to take those fair steps of saying, "Well, look, you might have got this week last year. You can't have it again this year because somebody else requires it because they've got a special event on", or something like that.

So I think it is one that arises every year and there's always that question mark over that one employee who will just ring in sick. So it's about trying to temper that in advance.

And then if it does happen, follow your policies and procedures. I think using your return-to-work interview processes for that. Importantly . . .

Julie:   Sorry, Seamus, if I can just break in there. So when you're having the return to work, maybe if you could advise around suggested wording so that it doesn't sound like, "You asked for this day off. Strangely enough, you were sick". Obviously, you wouldn't say that. So how would you maybe kind of start that conversation, or what would you . . .

Seamus:  I mean, I think that it does need to be met head on and I think where there is a genuine concern . . . Again, it's about presentation and the tone and manner that that is raised. But I think that you would want to know the circumstances around the illness. How did they report the illness?

Julie:   Yes. Was it actually them?

Seamus:  Did they follow the procedure correctly? Particularly in and around risks of did they just text? Did they leave a voicemail? How was that all handled and dealt with? And I suppose just dealing with it at the time as well, that if there is a voicemail or a text, the person is telephoned and a conversation takes place in order to get an understanding of what the illness is, how long it's going to last for, when they think they can come back to work.

Those can be difficult problems to have evidence in relation to and to get supportive evidence. And sometimes it's maybe just about putting the marker down and a shot across the bows to say, "We're well aware here. We're not fools as to what has happened. And we're marking your card now in relation to it".

Or where there is alternative evidence, if the person's silly enough to make social media postings of their events of the day, you could end up maybe with a full disciplinary process having to take place as well.

Julie:   You could. And I think that social media is a favourite topic of yours and something that you're covering for us at Annual Review as well, isn't it?

Seamus:  That's right. Yes.

Julie:   Yeah, always surprises you what people put online.

Seamus:  Yeah. I have few good examples that I can provide on an anonymised basis of course, but . . .

Julie:   Great. So you've talked, really, about trying to pre-empt if you suspect that the person . . . And again, there will be genuine situations, emergencies, illnesses as well, but what we're particularly looking at is almost where even from your HR metrics, you can see that there are patterns where there are certain people and all organisations would be aware that this is the person that takes off the day after the bank holiday or something happens as well. And so it's just about doing that.

So you're saying not going in all guns blazing, very much in the return to work, making sure that they had followed the process, that you're making clear that you're aware that it's the same dates as what they had requested and had been refused.

And then I take it around things like documentation as well, Seamus, it would be important that things like payroll don't just go ahead and really just pay any absence. Well, most HR would have that in place anyway where they would make sure that the self-certification, a doctor/GP sickness certificate is in place as well.

Seamus:  Yeah, absolutely. And again, that should all be set out within the handbook or within the policy and procedure, and that's even a point that can be discussed with the employee before they take their steps that they might be taking. Just alert them to those requirements in the policy and procedure, and the risk that if there's a breach of that or if the documentation isn't provided, those payments can be made.

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