Christine:  So if we move on to our second topic then, Seamus, menopause. I mean, I think it's a really important one for women, basically. Pregnancy and maternity don't affect all of us, but menopause is coming to us all, and employers need to start getting to grips with it.

There was a bit of a storm over in England. I can't remember the name of the company. I think I remember, but I don't want to name check the wrong company. They had a bit of a nightmare.

They sent out a menopause pack to their female employees, which was extremely . . . Well, it was not well received, let's say. They had a paperclip in it to help you hold yourself together, some Jelly Babies in case you wanted to bite someone's head off, a hand fan. It was just, I think, a 101 on what you shouldn't do with menopause. And their defence was, "Well, it was a woman that came up with it".

So, yeah, big issues around it, isn't there, Seamus?

Seamus:  Yeah, and again, something that we've had a lot of press coverage in I think from around 2020, 2021. I know Marie-Louise Connolly, who's the BBC Northern Ireland Health Correspondent, has been very open about her position on menopause and that really, I think, kick-started a discussion in and around it.

I mean, the reality is it's a natural stage in life for a woman. Some of the issues that come out are that they talk about generally it happens between 45 and 55, but it can also happen much earlier than that, and it also can happen much later.

I think sometimes employers, when it happens to younger employees, there's a scepticism, and if there's a dip all of a sudden in productivity or capability, I think it's a difficult job then to convince employers this is the reason for it. And they end up with the argument of, "Well, I have to go and get a medical report, and that's unfair", and all of that sort of stuff.

So I think there just has to be an acceptance that this is a reality of life, and it brings some challenges along with it. I think some of those challenges, that I've read about anyway, can be physical challenges. They can be psychological, emotional.

Some of them can be very severe and impact everyday activities and can certainly fall in . . . I mean, it is entirely possible that if it doesn't bring you into the realms of disability, and a recognised disability, that there are certainly conditions that arise from it that can bring you into that bracket.

But interestingly, just when you mentioned the previous one about the CIPD, they have done some research, and 67% of women working between the ages of 40 and 60 with experience of menopausal symptoms said that it had a mostly negative impact on them in work.

And the types of things that they were talking about, 79% said that they were less able to concentrate. Sixty-eight per cent had experienced more stress. Forty-nine per cent, which is nearly half, had said that they felt less patient with their clients and their colleagues, and 46% felt less physically able to carry out their work tasks. So you can see that it's a significant impact that can happen.

Our benefit here that we have in Northern Ireland is . . . I think that it's clear now that you need to have a policy and procedure in place in respect of menopause and how it's dealt with.

And it's more than just simple guidance of, "Allow the employee to sit near a window so that they can open it up if they get hot", or, "Give them cold water, that we've got cold water on tap for them", and things like that. It's more than that. I think as we get educated and these things are talked more openly, there's a better understanding.

But there's a really good guidance piece. NI Business Info have a really good one online as well, but the really good one, I think, is the Equality Commission and the Labour Relations Agency. It's "Promoting Equality in Employment for Women Affected by Menopause in the Workplace". So there's a guidance piece out there already for it, and it is something that we hear regularly on the news.

And I was just looking . . . it happened to come up, this one about "Firms must help menopausal workers, or face being sued". This was the Equality and Human Rights Commission in England. They had said that there were legal obligations that came upon employers as a result of menopause.

But it did say that research showed has that 1 in 10 women surveyed who worked during their menopause were forced to leave their job because of their symptoms.

Christine:  Yeah. Really shocking.

Seamus:  One in 10 in a period of time when you're trying to retain staff. And the likelihood is that this member of staff would be somebody that's vastly experienced and has specific skills that you require. So it is about flexibility.

They also said that two-thirds of women between the ages of 40 and 60 had experienced sort of a negative impact in their workplace as a result of menopause.

And they specifically said that taking disciplinary action against a woman for a menopause-related absence could amount to discrimination, and that language that ridicules somebody's symptoms could constitute harassment. That bears fruit, I think, in some of the case law that we have and that we see comes out of it.

But the guidance there that's from the Equality Commission, LRA, and then there's Irish Congress of Trade Unions input as well through a Northern Ireland committee, it talks about things like being inclusive and having a welcoming environment, understanding the employee, and understanding the circumstances.

It might mean that there are lower rates of absenteeism, higher rates of productivity, and that you'll get more staff loyalty if you're bringing about policies and procedures here to assist and help your employees.

It also talks about your health and safety legislation as well and tying in with specific requirements that could come around as a result of menopause.

But they talk about also the various legal duties that are imposed on employers. So it's ensuring that menopausal symptoms are not made worse by workplace conditions or work practices, making changes to help employees manage their symptoms when doing their work.

And then this idea of conducting risk assessments, which should include things like the temperature and ventilation in the workplace, materials that are used in uniforms, making sure that uniforms aren't too restrictive, and maybe having adjustments to your uniform policy for employees that are going through menopause.

Restroom facilities is another one that it talks about. And it's a side note, but I did see during the week that the Bar Library in Northern Ireland had pictures showing their breastfeeding room. Slightly different, but you can see how advanced it is, pictures of the room that female barristers can use for breastfeeding or for extraction or whatever it is that they need to do. So it's something similar to that idea as well.

Toilet and washroom facilities being easily accessible for employees and making sure that they’ve plenty of cold drinking water and stuff like that.

It talked about potential discrimination happening around sex, around disability, and about age. Those are the three factors that I think you're looking at on your protected characteristics.

And just an awareness that if you fail to respond to the needs of employees that have symptoms, it could be viewed as direct or indirect discrimination or a failure to make reasonable adjustments.

Ensure that your policies themselves are implemented fairly and consistently, and ensure that everybody that has management responsibilities are familiar with the policies and that they've had appropriate training in relation to that also. I think those are the protections and the best guidance that you can have for practice around that.

Wanted to sort of maybe just mention a couple of the case law that has been about.

So there's a 2012 case of Merchant v BT, and Mrs Merchant was challenged in relation to performance issues and capability concerns. Management had received a report from her GP, which indicated that there were health issues arising as a result of menopause. The manager chose to disregard the medical evidence and went ahead and dismissed Mrs Merchant for poor performance.

And interestingly, in that decision, it recorded that the manager had made his own assumptions and used his own personal experience of his wife having undergone the menopause.

Christine:  Yeah. I don't know if his explanation was choice, I have to say.

Seamus:  Yeah. And what the case said was rather than relying on fresh medical evidence, he'd relied upon anecdotal evidence, and the Tribunal found against BT. They said that the manager failed to follow a proper capability policy, which referred to seeking medical evidence. And it concluded that BT wouldn't have treated a male in a comparative set of circumstances in the same way. So that was the first of the cases.

There's a second case of Davies v Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service of 2018. This was a perimenopausal employee, and it's an interesting one in that she had a sort of granulated medication that she was putting into her water. She was essentially a court clerk, and she briefly left the court, two males were seen drinking water, and I think she panicked slightly in that they had drunk her water with her medication in it.

There was a health and safety review that was followed. Disciplinary action was brought against her, and it concluded that she hadn't shown any remorse and hadn't shown the values of the organisation in the way that she reacted. I think that she had spoken to them quite strongly whenever she came in and noticed that they were drinking water.

It turned out anyway that it wasn't her water that they were drinking. There was a slight pink tinge to her water that the medication gave, and that's how they were able to make the distinction.

But she was dismissed for gross misconduct, and this was despite an occupational health report that confirmed she had perimenopausal symptoms, which affected her memory and her concentration.

What the Tribunal said was that the employer clearly failed to take into account the evidence and the impact that menopause had had with regard to her behaviour, and she was reinstated. She was awarded £19,000. Fourteen thousand pounds was back pay, and £5,000 was an injury to feelings.

And the third case is a more recent one of 2019, which was a case against the retailer Bonmarche. It's now, I think, closed in liquidation. The claimant was a senior supervisor. She worked there for a long time, but our manager had started a bullying campaign and ridiculing her as she was going through the menopause and referred to her as a dinosaur and encouraged other staff to laugh at his comments. Fairly difficult stuff for the employee.

And then there was a restructure that took place. The claimant's post was unaffected by the restructure, but as a result of the restructure, then, was put on sort of on full shifts. Previously, she'd been working on part-time shifts. Ultimately, she resigned.

Suffered a complete breakdown due to harassment and bullying, but she was successful. She brought claims for age and sex discrimination against the employer. She was awarded £28,000, £10,000 for loss of earnings and £18,000 on injury to feelings, and that was as a result of what the Tribunal termed as serious bullying and harassment that she'd suffered by her manager.

So I think that the cases show that employers do need to be careful around employees.

I mean, I know I have cases that have come across my desk before where there is banter among the female employees in relation to menopause and banter amongst females that are in the same age bracket that don't necessarily involve younger employees.

And sometimes whenever that is noted by male employees . . . I had a case where male employees then joined in the banter and thought it was funny too. But then there was exception taken to it and it was taken too far and having to deal with those issues.

What it comes down to, I think, is two things. There needs to be a policy and procedure in place, and maybe, like some of our polls, that does form part of your discrimination training that you'll give.

But I think if you ended up with a Tribunal case involving issues around menopause where you haven't sort of met the mark, an employee is not going to have much sympathy because it is something that we read and we see about. There's been great promotion of the LRA and the Equality Commission's policy and procedure.

So, these issues are out there, and it's not going to be enough to come along and say, "Well, it's an embarrassing, challenging topic to discuss", and stuff like that. That's just not going to be acceptable any longer, I don't think.

Christine:  Brilliant. Thanks, Seamus.

I mean, on a personal note, I think the direction it's going, forcing women down the disability route, is a very unusual one. I don't think that all women can be classed as disabled at that certain stage of their life. It's certainly something I wouldn't want to have to say in a Tribunal.

So I would hope that menopause will get its own protection as a characteristic on its own, instead of us having to gerrymander these cases, sex, age, disability all thrown in to the mix. I think it would make much more sense. But that's me off my soapbox.

I'll sum up now, Seamus, my real takeaways on the menopause topic.

Firstly, treat women as individuals. Don't assume symptoms because you, your partner, your friend, your next-door neighbour, whoever it may be, has been through it. Everyone is going to experience menopause differently.

Secondly, because it's been a taboo for so long, people are often tempted to trivialise or joke about the symptoms. Even women do this. It's not acceptable in the workplace, and this should be made clear.

And thirdly, have a dedicated menopause policy. Circulate it widely and ensure managers are trained in its implementation.

On that note, Legal-Island does have a menopause course that you can undertake in our eLearning. So, there are some details on the screen now, and there will also be some further details in the email after the webinar.

Legal Island Training Resources for Your Staff

Menopause | eLearning Course

Are you responsible for overseeing and managing the wellbeing of all employees in your organisation?
The purpose of our course on menopause is to improve your staff’s understanding of the menopause and help create a more comfortable working environment for women experiencing the menopause. This course is for all employees, regardless of gender.
Dispelling the taboo surrounding menopause, helps an organisation build a more inclusive workforce and a great place to work. The cost of supporting colleagues in the workplace with compassion and simple reasonable adjustments is minimal in comparison with the cost of losing an employee.

Click here to access a free demo of this course, or access it as part of our employee wellbeing toolkit along with several other key mental health and well-being topic areas.