. Far from the mass redundancies that were being predicted when furlough ended, we've seen an extremely buoyant jobs market, to say the least. Firms are expanding and recruiting in an unexpected way. There are staff shortages across some very key industries. We've got hospitality, retail, and of course, the highly publicised haulage industry issues.

As far as employees are concerned, the workplace is a seller's market. "What are you prepared to give me to get me to work for you, really?" We've got 1.2 million job vacancies across the UK. That was in September that poll was taken. That's a record, but it puts employers under pressure. They need to respond.

I read another survey that says nearly a quarter of employees are planning to change jobs. I think that's reflected in the poll that we did. But that particular survey's view was that remote working has reduced company loyalty. And I'm not sure whether that's the reason. I think it's got to be more complex than that. What's your view on that, Seamus?

Seamus: Yeah, I had read the article, and this was an article by People Management. And there was a survey that was carried out by Randstad. Six thousand people involved in the poll, and a quarter, or 24%, which practically mirrors what we've just noticed on our poll as well, which is really interesting from a local perspective as well, said that they were planning to change job in the near future.

And I think certainly that the employee confidence and their confidence to be able to obtain alternative employment is high, and it does make people brave and it makes people realise that there's maybe more to it than their existing role.

But within that poll, 69% of people said that they were confident in their ability, and only 16% said that they were worried about finding a new role. So I think that's exactly right. What we were expecting coming out the end of furlough and out of the end of lockdowns was that there was going to be sort of mass hysteria almost in relation to redundancies, and that has not happened. And if anything, what I'm hearing through my clients is it's a shortage of staff.

And where that shortage is coming from, I don't think it's just down to company loyalty either. I think that there's no doubt that a lot of maybe foreign nationals that were living in Northern Ireland went home during the pandemic out of fear.

I know that I did a lot of redundancy work with employers where there had been a reduction in work. A lot of foreign nationals were impacted and a lot of them were returning home for safety issues, and everything else just feeling better during a pandemic to be at home. I don't think that we've seen a big influx of those people coming back at this point. That has left a shortage.

There are Brexit issues as well that have no doubt had an impact upon all of this too. It just has been a number of those factors pooled together that I think has caused this that none of us really could have foreseen.

But there is a rush almost to find roles. And I think also a big part of the pandemic . . . I think a lot of the lockdowns and people working from home and maybe having more time on their hands really was an assessment of, "Is this what I want to do? Am I happy with what I'm doing?"

I did read within these polls as well that the big aspect of people undertaking different courses, finding different skills, because they weren't happy within the role that they were doing and maybe looking to see what else they could do.

So there has been a big uptake in relation to people undertaking courses, whether that's a tech, whether through Open College or Open University. Definitely, people that have made decisions that they're not content. And part of the pandemic, I suppose, will always make people think about those sorts of things.

I mean, ultimately, company loyalty, let's be frank about it and call a spade a spade. Money talks. Remuneration packages are probably top of the pile for a lot of people, especially for a lot of younger people. Maybe not so much later on, if you've been in an organisation a very long time and you're very settled and you're very happy and the loyalty has grown up. But for younger folk, it tends to be about . . . Look, they want to buy houses. Maybe they want to get married and have children.

There's a path that takes you along that way, and a lot of the time that's driven by what the remuneration package will be.

And I think, certainly, there have been opportunities out there. I think the shortage in staff has created a vacuum and people have been able to say, "Well, I can do the same job somewhere else and maybe earn £3,000 more, £5,000 more doing that job". There are other issues involved there.

Other types of things that I think are . . . At the minute, definitely competition is fierce and that will create increases in salary. And I think the demand for skills is outstripping what we have in terms of supply at the minute.

But those negative sides to losing staff, there's the administration costs for resignations, there's time to be spent, not just doing exit interviews, and the . . . Sometimes the negative aspect can come out in employers whenever they say staff leaving of, "What are we doing wrong?" and crisis management and those sorts of things.

There are also big costs around recruitment and selection, and covering those roles while you're waiting on somebody coming in to fill the role. There's an amount of cost there to that. And there can also be the motivating factor on your existing team who are having maybe to pick up and do more work. It's unsettling for everyone when somebody leaves like that.

And then, of course, there's the induction whenever you get the new employee in, but there is that sort of push and pull factor at the minute. There's the pull of an attractive new job somewhere else, earning more money, and better terms and conditions. And then there's the push factor as well I think within organisations where maybe people feel hampered, that there isn't career progression, that there isn't opportunities, and that can move to push people on in relation to jobs and roles as well at the minute.

I think ultimately, for employees, it's definitely about flexibility at the minute. Employees are looking for flexibility within their role. If it's a hybrid system of working from home, it gives them some flexibility. If they're having the ability to cut a long journey in the morning and the evening, it provides more time at home. It provides more time with family.

I still come back to that aspect where I think that the pandemic has put purpose on people. They've had time to reflect on what I want to do. "What is it that I want?"

Christine: yeah.

Seamus: Yeah. And maybe moving in that direction. That's why maybe we're seeing that change of not just moving from jobs but career paths changes as well.

And then that sort of aspect where people want to learn and they want to progress within their career as well. Maybe what it is that employers need to do now to retain staff, or, as it is at the minute, also to obtain staff as well. Not just retain them but to get them in the door in the first place.

Christine: Well, I think, Seamus, you seem to be very much agreeing with Mr Boris Johnson. I mean, he told the haulage industry just to start paying people more and the Bank of England immediately reacted by saying, "No, don't. It's going to drag inflation up". So I think it can't all be to do with money.

Although I do have a lovely quote from People Management just about our listeners today. It was an interesting one. Seamus and I both quite enjoyed this one. It says, "HR is one of the most mercenary professions when it comes to pay". Apparently, 84% of you guys say salary is the most important factor for you when accepting a job, and that compares to only 67% of lawyers, like myself and Seamus. So we're obviously much more noble and driven by a cause than the HR professionals.

Seamus: I was astounded by that.

Christine: Yes. I have to say the lawyers I know, I am slightly shocked by that statistic. I mean, my personal opinion is that if you want to stand out from the crowd, it can't just be about money. You've got to show kind of the softer side of the business to try to retain staff and recruit staff.

So I think the pandemic has started to show employers' softer sides. By necessity, we've had to have initiatives about well-being. You're also seeing directly into people's homes on an almost daily basis. You can see that they have a dog, they have a cat, they have pictures of their kids in the background. They start to become more of a person to the employer. And I think people enjoy feeling like it's more personal and they're not just a commodity.

Would you agree, Seamus, that we do need to look at the softer skills and initiatives like that to try to recruit and retain?

Seamus: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think that the flexibility, say, in relation to the remuneration, that is important, and I think a lot of people do move jobs for more money. But there are also other aspects that are specifically in relation to people looking, as I said, for flexibility.

I think the other side of it as well is that people do want to work in a job where they feel valued, where their personal circumstances and their own outlook and their own ethics match that of the employer also. And that's not always the simplest thing to obtain from reviewing somebody's website. You'll hear from colleagues or from friends or from family, "Oh, they're a good employer". What makes a good employer at the end of the day?

It does make me think in that aspect of loyalty and people not being in work with their colleagues. Most of us like the people that we work with. We have good relationships with them. We miss them when they're off and we look forward to them coming back. And I can't say that, obviously, for everybody we work with. I've done too many cases where it's not all fields of gold. But there is that relationship aspect coming to work, learning about other people's lives. I mean, there's an involvement there, and that maybe has been lost through the working from home. Maybe work does just come about doing the work at home and losing that.

I know employers have done different things in relation to quizzes and cocktail mixing and all those sorts of things online, but if you're still doing that, it's not the same as the tactile side of it.

But I also think that it's not just about salary. It's about the flexible working and it's about providing an attractive set of employee benefits. And when I was doing some research into that . . . Capita had done a survey and they had said 69% of employees are more likely to stay with an employer that offers a good employee package. So it's about the overall package. And 68% in that survey said that they would take a job for the same reason.

I think other things that we need to be aware of are that candidates and employees do their research now. They will go to social media, they will go to the websites, they'll look up the anonymous websites as well to see what people are sharing about the workplace. And let's face it, that's not always good. Glass Ceiling and RollOnFriday, those sorts of websites that provide anonymity to anybody that's posting on it.

And I suppose it's about the interview aspect as well, and we talked a bit about that just before we came on, Christine. Interviews probably . . . we've moved away entirely now from interviews being about matching the skill set to the job that's being done. It's about building in more about that. It's about building in "Will this person fit within our business? Will they make a good employee? And then will we make a good employer for them?"

And certainly, within recent recruitments that we have done, you do feel it in the extent that the table is turned where the employee is then asking you questions about your organisation. They want to know.

And for me, as well, it's about building into that interview process, explaining what the culture is in the organisation, what the expectations are, how we work, what we do, and how we do it. But it's also about asking not just strictly work questions during an interview.

I'm cautious when I say, "Ask them personal questions", because obviously, there's a clear line that you would not cross, specifically in and around discrimination elements and things like that. But certainly, asking people what is it they enjoy doing outside of work, because there can be common things that could run through. And even looking at things like corporate responsibility and maybe what your organisation does in respect of corporate responsibility and whether that person has aligned views and things like that as well for it.

But I think certainly when it comes to retention, you're looking at . . . I think a competitive, fair salary is important for employees. Empowerment is really important as well. When the person comes in to the organisation, I think during that interview process, you should be explaining that there is the possibility . . . Some people don't want the progress. Some people are happy to come in to do their job and go home and that's what they're looking for. Others will want to progress. They'll want to know about, "Is there a chain of progression that can happen, and are there doors here for me that I can move and develop in my career?"

I think recognition from employers is a really important one as well. I think employers have got better at that, and I'm not just talking about throwing them a few quid at Christmas as a bonus or something along those lines. I think it's the aspect of employers acknowledging to employees that they're valued, that they're important, and that they're appreciated for the work that they do.

I mean, I know that we're in the pandemic, but things like office nights out and Christmas dinners and things like that. Christmas dinner have been almost done away with in entirety because employers tend to be so afraid of them now as well. Honestly, we're in a pandemic and that's not something that we've been able to do, but it's about showing the recognition and the appreciation for those employees and letting them know that they're valued.

Things about the relationship as well. It's a work relationship. It's a professional relationship, but that doesn't mean that . . . I mean, we're foolish and stupid to think that there won't be elements of our personal lives that will cross over with our work life. It happens.

Flexibility is definitely something that is up there. And I think just matching your benefits package to your staff is really important as well. Free beer and pizzas on a Friday night are not going to suit every single employee. They might suit the younger folk, but for the parents that need to go home to look after children, they might appreciate something different within their benefits package, like maybe their medical or their healthcare and things like that as well.

So maybe not having just a one-size-fits-all, but maybe throwing that benefit across. I think just looking after an employee's well-being is important as well.

Christine: Yeah. Just on the recruitment side of things, I think that this is actually a great opportunity for employers to start looking at diversity and inclusion issues. If you would start advertising specifically and you mentioned that you can accommodate disabilities and you have an accessible workplace, you have accommodations in your recruitment process, that's automatically going to make disabled candidates feel more comfortable, more inclined to go to you.

Then also, some firms are looking at returner programmes for women. So, obviously, we know a lot of professional women step back when they have children, but it doesn't have to be forever. I myself stepped back for a while and I've come back. So having a dedicated returners programme is really tapping into . . . There's a resource there. There's a big group of very intelligent candidates just waiting to be employed by you.

So if you start to diversify, watch your wording in your adverts to take out the kind of more male wording, which sounds like a weird thing, but it is seen to be true, or specifically say, "We welcome candidates with all abilities", you're going to widen your base in a way that your competitors aren't. So I think it's a really great opportunity.

We've talked a wee bit about the doom and gloom of it, but it can also be an opportunity. You're refreshing your team. You're getting in new skills. You get away from your groupthink that we all tend to get into when we're very comfortable with people. So I think it can be an opportunity too.

Just keeping a wee eye on the time, Seamus, I will maybe wrap this particular section up. What would your three key takeaways regarding recruitment and retention in this environment be then?

Seamus: Well, I think probably the first step is to be proactive in relation to retention. Know the staff that you have, know their worth, know what they bring to your business, and you might seek to take steps in order to protect those members of staff. Check in on them. Have conversations. Are they happy? Is there anything that can be done if they're not happy? So I suppose that there's a bit of a risk assessment internally to look at protecting your resources that you have.

And I think a big part of that is taking the temperature within work, those discussions, consultation, speaking to your staff, and getting an understanding. There are things that employers can do if they're worried about a mass exodus and they're saying, "What's the problem here? Is there a problem within our organisation?" You can look at SurveyMonkeys and suggestion boxes and things like that.

And in this current market, it might just be something that you might give some consideration to if you are noticing an exodus of a lot of employees and what you can do to retain them.

I think also incentivisation and motivation are important within your existing team. Make your workplace a good place to work. It doesn't have to be expensive to do that and it does not have to be difficult. There are lots of ways that you can go about making your place a good place to work.

I remember Scott telling me a while ago in relation to how Legal-Island deal with things like that. Legal-Island is a very open workplace. Everybody knows where the company is at financially, what is happening. It brings people on board and it gives them empowerment in relation to their role.

So I think my three takeaways would be risk assess, know what's going on within your organisation, and try to incentivise and motivate. The last one is really where there are certain rules that need protected or where you are noticing that maybe recruitment is needed, don't be afraid to make those steps if the business case is there. Move with it.

Christine: Yeah, brilliant. Thank you very much for that, Seamus. That's really helpful.