Julie:  So before we start, I'm going to ask Seamus about an article that he wrote for the "Irish News" which was published, Seamus, just before you talk to us about HR practitioners and how organisations need to consider a return to the office and how to look at several aspects before making a decision. So can you just remind us with a quick summary about how they should do that and what we should include, please?

Seamus:  Well, the big time that we were looking at this sort of rush to the return to the office was back whenever we were hoping that the government were going to lift their regulations around working from home. And I think we're well established now at this point in relation to things very much normalising.

The vast majority of clients that I have, they're working in industry that they can. The result of the pandemic has really left this sort of very much an increased hybrid place of work where you have employees that will work part of the week at home, or alternatively they'll do one week on, one week off, or they'll be in the office for two or three days a week and working from home the remainder of the time.

And obviously, the big benefits for employees in relation to that has really been their ability to work from home, they can manage their life better. Some are finding that it's much more beneficial in relation to lifestyle. They don't have the travel elements of it.

And I know that we've come into the summer season and we can see the lighter traffic that we have on the roads in relation to as the schools are out. But for a lot of parents, there's an ability to work from home to facilitate bringing the children to school in the morning, coming home, and being able to get a day's work in and not have those exhaustive and sometimes very challenging trips and drives in and out of work, or public transport, or whatever it is.

And there's also an increased cost when people are doing that, whether it's through public transport or whether it's parking costs whenever they get to work if they're driving. So there are lots of reasons that employees can certainly put to employers in relation to why they would want to continue to work from home.

One of the aspects I think that we are seeing is that this normalisation has very much happened. Even as solicitors and practitioners here, we have all been called back to court. The Lady Chief Justice has issued a direction that really the norm should return in respect of not appearing remotely on computer.

Now, you can still do it and the courts will facilitate that where they will do it, I suppose, and where it's necessary. But very much, I think, for me that was the point where I thought, "It really is back to normal at this point".

And I think that there are a lot of issues arising in relation to that tug of war, as you called it, where employees are saying, "No, I want to continue to be able to work from home. But I will give a little. I'll look at this hybrid way of dealing with it".

Certainly when it comes to the summer holidays, Julie, I think one of the issues is that where people are taking leave, there can be a sudden call for people to return back to the office on a full-time basis simply because others are away. And I suppose some of the concerns in and around that would be that we have this aspect of the employer expecting flexibility, which is fine, but not giving sufficient notice in relation to it.

So one of the things I think has to happen is that there needs to be proper notice given to an employee to say, "Look, you're going to have to come into the office", or, "Will you come into the office on a full-time basis for the next two weeks? Because one of your colleagues isn't going to be here".

And I think it's about providing sufficient notice in relation to that and being aware that the employee will have to make arrangements in that regard. We have children off now for summer. We have childcare provisions that will need to be obtained. So there are lots of those sorts of issues that are arising presently.

But on a broader scale in relation to that, I think that . . . You sent me some information through. We know that 7 in 10 companies globally, which is 72%, have implemented a return to the office, with two-fifths, so 42%, were saying then as a result of that, they were seeing higher levels of attrition. So where employers have taken a forceful stance and said, "You must return", what they're noticing is then that they're seeing a lot of people leaving the place.

And we all know the difficulties that everybody is having in respect of recruitment. And recruitment and retention are certainly, I think, still with us and they're still going to be with us. This summer period is a bit of a test and it's a bit of a trial for how all this is working out, really. So I do think that employers need to be careful.

The other big thing that they need to be careful about is in and around saying that somebody has to come back to the office full-time and maybe not being cognisant or not being aware sufficiently in relation to reasons why that person can't return to the office on a full-time basis.

So, there may be issues around childcare. There may be an issue around caring for maybe disabled children, relatives, or elderly parents as well. And also then the position in and around if there have been reasonable adjustments that have been put in place to facilitate them.

There has been a bit of an issue whereby the normal process for things like flexible working has lost its way somewhat as a result of this hybrid working. And what would've been a very formal process for flexible working, in order to achieve that goal maybe of hybrid working, has been lost a bit in the issues that have arisen with the pandemic and coming out of the pandemic. And then this sort of position of normalisation that we're returning to now, and employees and employers butting heads about what exactly the position is.

But there would be concern specifically around those sort of sex-based discrimination claims, disability discrimination claims, where employees are sort of feeling that they are being forced, with one hand up their back, back into the office. And maybe just all of those issues have been lost in translation as a result of the pandemic. So certainly that is one thing to watch out for.

Outside of that, I think it's the staff retention and it's the recruitment aspect. I think we're definitely seeing a pushback, particularly from our younger folk whenever they are looking for employment and whenever they're applying for roles. The expectation is that there will be an element of hybrid working available to them.

And depending on your sector, it might be that you're working from home all of the month and maybe coming in one day for a team meeting or something along those lines, particularly if you're in those sort of IT sectors or sectors where you can absolutely work from home 100% of the times.

And it does create difficulties and arguments for the employer to try to enforce it. But I think, overall, the key aspect for all of this has to be open communication, keeping things open and transparent, discussions with staff. If there is a requirement or there is a need to have an increased number of employees in the office, I think that needs to be communicated clearly.

I think that it also needs to be clearly justified. And I don't think it's a matter of an employer just simply saying, "You have to get back to work in the office, and that's it". Where we're at, at the minute, it needs to be understandable. It needs to be presented in a clear way and an understandable way for employees to get on board with it.

Julie:   So that's interesting that you're talking about the generational differences too, Seamus, but there'd be certain people that would argue as well that there are certain times in someone's career, or perhaps if you thought that there were too many distractions as an employer, that you might want somebody in the office as well.

Seamus:  Yeah, absolutely. And with the advice around open communication, I think that that is really important. For things like staff morale and everything else, employees just want to feel included when it comes to those sort of big decisions that are made.The real clear way, and it's one that we bang the drum of all the time here on our podcast, is that ideally you want to have some form of written policy in place around your position. Whether it is hybrid working, whether it's working in the office full time, or whether it is somebody working from home, there needs to be a clear written policy about that. It needs to be applied consistently across the board. And I think employees need to go somewhere where they can pick up the policy and know what it says. Certainly I think that that is really important.

And if you end up in a tribunal case with a claim for discrimination, the expectation from a tribunal will certainly be, "Well, what is the policy and how is it available?"

Julie:   All right. Great. Seamus, thanks very much for that, because I think that that encompassed a lot, and it also did set up the scene really about specifically childcare and just the fact that summer break really does present a bit of an issue for employers and their employees as well.

Seamus:  And maybe I just want to just mention that there are some positives as well that can come out of a return to the office. Some of those things that we're seeing are that there is that aspect of collegiality and work, the ability to get support in work because there are people there in order to chat things through.

It's easier and more cohesive if you're working on a project with others if everybody's in the office and you're able to have those discussions and be in such close proximity that everybody sort of knows what's going on, rather than having to arrange a daily Teams meeting for everybody to catch up and to say their piece and all of that. So there are positive aspects of office life that we'll all remember.

And I think for a lot of people, just whenever they look at that, they weigh that up and they say, "Well, no, it's more beneficial for me to be able to work from home from a work and life balance and everything else". But there are those steps.

And certainly for younger members of staff as well, if you're learning and you're new to your role and you want to soak up and sponge as much information as you can, being with people in your place of work that are doing the same or similar work to you, you'll no doubt learn it quicker than if you're left to your own devices. Even if there's an amazing training programme that is done online, there's an argument there that it's just not the same.

Then I think just from the other side of it is that it's the company culture, the socialisation, and being with like-minded individuals, all of those sorts of positives. And that really can help when it comes to the office morale, the collegiality, having a good place to work.

I suppose, look, everybody does have different ideas about what a good place to work is, and it can be dependent on where you're at in your life as well. Whether you're starting out, whether you're hitting the top end of your career, or whether you're coming close the end of it, it looks different for everybody. But I suppose it's about coming back, again, to that point of being able to have those open discussions.

Julie:   Okay. And Seamus, we've got two questions that have come in already, so thanks. And again, any other questions, please just drop them into the questions box for us.

The first one is just in general in relation to bringing people back to the office. So when you talk about making sure you have those conversations with people beforehand, don't just land it on them on a Friday, "By the way, we need you in on Monday", what kind of lead-in time would you suggest for that? So I'll let you answer that one first.

Seamus:  Yeah, absolutely. Just on the first question, lead-in time for those sorts of discussions, that again will vary from staff member to staff member. But if you know that there's a staff member that is reliant upon their hybrid working for childcare issues or for caring issues or any of those sort of other issues that are about there, then the longer notice you can give, obviously, the better.

You also need to keep an eye on during that period of what holidays they have booked as well, and also what the expectations are if there are certain projects that they're working on that need completed, if they're going to be coming into the office to cover other people's work, or to pick up the slack while other people are on holidays. That all needs to be factored in as well.

But I think lead-in time, I couldn't say, "Oh, it'll be five days", or, "It'll be 14 days", or whatever it is. I mean, ultimately, it might be helpful to look at what the policy says in and around what notice an employee has to give for certain periods of leave. And maybe that's a good line to look at in order to see what might be reasonable. But certainly . . .

Julie:   Sorry, Seamus. So do you mean kind of the double amount? So usually if you're requesting leave, it has to be double the amount. So it's almost the employer doing that as well?

Seamus:  Yes.

Julie:   All right.

Seamus:  Yeah, I think that would be reasonable and helpful. But there may be circumstances where if somebody that has had some form of accident, they're going to be off ill for a period of time, the cover is needed, or that you just simply need the person back. But I think that you do need to give as much notice as you can.

It's that thing of taking a reasonable approach and what that looks like. But that might be a helpful tool to say, "Well, listen, if you were to come to us about wanting leave, then this is sort of similar".

But again, it always has to come down to the business need and the justifiable reasons for it. And there may be that it is just a shorter period and you're working with a person in order to facilitate that.

So they might say to you, "Look, I'm able to come in and cover for four days next week, but I can't do five. Or I can do three, but I can't do five. And here are the options around what we can and can't do". But I think lead-in period might be a helpful sort of tool to look at.

Julie:  I've got one last question that has come in through, and it's about, "If someone agrees to a flexible working request and starts, but then decides that it's no longer required, can it be changed if the business has put a structure in place to support that agreed request?"

Seamus:  Well, usually the position is the flexible working applications; once they're granted, they come with a permanency. There certainly would be the ability for the organisation to agree to a change to it, but where you've put a structure in place to accommodate that, it can make it very difficult to try to undo that.

I can't remember precisely, but you're time-bound in relation to one flexible working application until you can make another as well. It's not that you can just make another one straightaway. I can't remember the timeframe on that.

But where there have been accommodations put in place and a new structure, certainly I would feel that there would be support for the employer to try to maintain that.

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